Ghost_Bass Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I don't think it's a rippof when people use the knowledge they aquire on a company when they go work on another. Take a look at Ashdown vs Trace, or the SWR > Eden > Thundefunk history and many more. I also never read so much hate on the internet when people buy the Behringer rippofs of Boss pedals or a Sadowsky/Allevo/etc. that are basicly Fender clones... But then comes Mr Hall and he's the villain that won't allow for his stuf to be copied/inspired... I'm not taking anybody's side, i own a Groove Regulator and a finnish B3K, excelent top quality gear. Spencer and Doug are really pushing the bass pedal boundaries forward. I just think that people should think twice before taking sides on something that's not really an issue. If Pike releases a better "B3K" it's not copy, it's progress, isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiliwailer Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 ^^^ +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0175westwood29 Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 [quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1448994705' post='2919928'] I don't think it's a rippof when people use the knowledge they aquire on a company when they go work on another. Take a look at Ashdown vs Trace, or the SWR > Eden > Thundefunk history and many more. I also never read so much hate on the internet when people buy the Behringer rippofs of Boss pedals or a Sadowsky/Allevo/etc. that are basicly Fender clones... But then comes Mr Hall and he's the villain that won't allow for his stuf to be copied/inspired... I'm not taking anybody's side, i own a Groove Regulator and a finnish B3K, excelent top quality gear. Spencer and Doug are really pushing the bass pedal boundaries forward. I just think that people should think twice before taking sides on something that's not really an issue. If Pike releases a better "B3K" it's not copy, it's progress, isn't it? [/quote] Very well sad man! Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0175westwood29 Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 [quote name='Kev' timestamp='1448751726' post='2917947'] [/quote] Wasn't meant as a sarcastic thing actually surprising dark glass didn't do this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev Posted December 20, 2015 Author Share Posted December 20, 2015 Circuit board comparisons up on Talkbass. Interested to hear Spencer's 'explanation' as to why the circuit boards are near identical too, bar a few value changes and a small section in the middle which one presumes is this 'second drive circuit'. http://www.talkbass.com/threads/pike-amplification-vulcan-od-3-leaf-audio-new-company.1190555/page-15#post-18135447 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0175westwood29 Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 [quote name='Kev' timestamp='1450603647' post='2934134'] Circuit board comparisons up on Talkbass. Interested to hear Spencer's 'explanation' as to why the circuit boards are near identical too, bar a few value changes and a small section in the middle which one presumes is this 'second drive circuit'. http://www.talkbass.com/threads/pike-amplification-vulcan-od-3-leaf-audio-new-company.1190555/page-15#post-18135447 [/quote] So they are different? Could you or look in any tubescreamer clone and see a similar board? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev Posted December 20, 2015 Author Share Posted December 20, 2015 (edited) You have seen the pictures, right? I don't know of any former tube screamer head of operations going off to build their own version of pedals with practically identical circuits (in both components, style and layout) and enclosures, no. Edited December 20, 2015 by Kev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0175westwood29 Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 [quote name='Kev' timestamp='1450607832' post='2934192'] You have seen the pictures, right? I don't know of any former tube screamer employees going off to build their own version of pedals with practically identical circuits (in both components, style and layout) and enclosures, no. [/quote] I've seen then, and yeh there close but they aren't the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HazBeen Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 I think we need to be careful not to make this a witch hunt just because we know and love Darkglass equipment and 3Leaf has created a similar - not the same - pedal. It is clear that the B7/3k was the basis for the new pedal, but quite frankly I find it odd that variations on Muffs, 808s etc are perfectly acceptable but this is not. The soiled business relationship will have 2 sides and my 20 yrs in business (incl JVs gone wrong) tell me there will have been conduct on both sides that led to the split. Doug Castro will be a savy business man, not a saint as will Spencer. Really the discussion should be if we like the pedals or not, nothing more or less. IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev Posted December 20, 2015 Author Share Posted December 20, 2015 [quote name='HazBeen' timestamp='1450608516' post='2934203'] I think we need to be careful not to make this a witch hunt just because we know and love Darkglass equipment and 3Leaf has created a similar - not the same - pedal. It is clear that the B7/3k was the basis for the new pedal, but quite frankly I find it odd that variations on Muffs, 808s etc are perfectly acceptable but this is not. The soiled business relationship will have 2 sides and my 20 yrs in business (incl JVs gone wrong) tell me there will have been conduct on both sides that led to the split. Doug Castro will be a savy business man, not a saint as will Spencer. Really the discussion should be if we like the pedals or not, nothing more or less. IMO. [/quote] Your right of course I'm only really irked that Spencer is maintaining that he hasn't done what it is clear he has, but as he is not active on this forum as he is on TB (although he has gone quiet now, which I don't really blame given the nature of the TB thread) so we won't get any comment. Steering the topic in the right direction, does anyone have one yet? Bass Direct now have them in stock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FretNoMore Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 (edited) Sound is important, but actually not everything ... personally I find there's something quite smelly about this whole thing, it goes against everything I would personally do after leaving a partnership. I try to stay away from copies or clones if there is an original still being manufactured, I don't mind if others have a different appoach but that is what feels right to me. There are often, most of the time really, alternative products if you don't want to give a certain builder your money. There are a few I don't care for, based on personal bad experiences with them or their products, or just some practice or image I disagree with. I really like my Wonderlove but I doubt any more money will go that way. Right or wrong impression maybe, and my loss I'm sure, but there it is. Anyway, no more from me on this, apologies if it's somehow inappropriate. Edited December 20, 2015 by FretNoMore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guinness21 Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 I'm just waiting on a comparison between the xl and a b7k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbass4k Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 [quote name='Kev' timestamp='1450603647' post='2934134'] Circuit board comparisons up on Talkbass. Interested to hear Spencer's 'explanation' as to why the circuit boards are near identical too, bar a few value changes and a small section in the middle which one presumes is this 'second drive circuit'. [url="http://www.talkbass.com/threads/pike-amplification-vulcan-od-3-leaf-audio-new-company.1190555/page-15#post-18135447"]http://www.talkbass....5#post-18135447[/url] [/quote] Design and tooling costs. In that big post Spencer made it pretty clear that the fundamental circuit design is the same as the darkglass, I don't think he's trying to deny that, so doing a new PCB layout would be a massive waste of time and money. He says he designed the PCB, I believe him, as long as he didn't sell the rights to the layout to darkglass then he's perfectly entitled to use it himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev Posted December 20, 2015 Author Share Posted December 20, 2015 (edited) [quote name='bobbass4k' timestamp='1450619301' post='2934321'] Design and tooling costs. In that big post Spencer made it pretty clear that the fundamental circuit design is the same as the darkglass, I don't think he's trying to deny that, so doing a new PCB layout would be a massive waste of time and money. He says he designed the PCB, I believe him, as long as he didn't sell the rights to the layout to darkglass then he's perfectly entitled to use it himself. [/quote] Spencer did not design the PCB. I haven't even seen a claim to that, he just 'upgraded' a couple of components including the switch, schematics were otherwise 100% Darkglass/Doug, as of course was the layout of the pedal. He did create the enclosures (I can't say design, as fundamentally the old Finnish and USA had the same overall look) so don't think there is an issue there (apart from the interesting discrepancy in pre-drilled, when the Vulcan has a different PS location), however bizarre it appears from a business point of view. He has said the Vulcan is inspired by his knowledge of the Darkglass circuit, what he has not admitted to is that it appears to bean adjusted version of the exact same pcb, only with a Pike logo. I think what is so frustrating here is, if he had put these overdrive in his own cool rolled steel enclosures (changing PCB layout as appropriate) and they do sound very different to the DG units, then all these long accusatory conversations would never have taken place and I for one would be looking forward to trying one! However, to use the word again, the way he has done this is just bizarre. Edited December 20, 2015 by Kev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbass4k Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 [quote name='Kev' timestamp='1450621183' post='2934352'] Spencer did not design the PCB. I haven't even seen a claim to that, he just 'upgraded' a couple of components including the switch, schematics were otherwise 100% Darkglass/Doug, as of course was the layout of the pedal. He did create the enclosures (I can't say design, as fundamentally the old Finnish and USA had the same overall look) so don't think there is an issue there (apart from the interesting discrepancy in pre-drilled, when the Vulcan has a different PS location), however bizarre it appears from a business point of view. He has said the Vulcan is inspired by his knowledge of the Darkglass circuit, what he has not admitted to is that it appears to bean adjusted version of the exact same pcb, only with a Pike logo. I think what is so frustrating here is, if he had put these overdrive in his own cool rolled steel enclosures (changing PCB layout as appropriate) and they do sound very different to the DG units, then all these long accusatory conversations would never have taken place and I for one would be looking forward to trying one! However, to use the word again, the way he has done this is just bizarre. [/quote] He says Doug came to him with the schematic of the audio circuit and he did the "physical design", to me, that's the PCB layout. Creating Gerbers for the PCB is an entirely separate (and more time consuming) task to drawing the schematic. He also says he fronted most of the production costs, which more than likely includes the PCB tooling, so as far as the PCB manufacturer/PCBA subby is concerned, he owns the rights to the PCB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannybuoy Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 I couldn't give a monkey's about the politics and would choose whatever pedal sounded best, I think most bassists not deeply involved in Basschat / Talkbass wouldn't even know or care either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 Slightly off-topic, but related - how does British law stand with regard to "electronic circuits and copyright"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev Posted December 20, 2015 Author Share Posted December 20, 2015 [quote name='dannybuoy' timestamp='1450625618' post='2934403'] I couldn't give a monkey's about the politics and would choose whatever pedal sounded best, I think most bassists not deeply involved in Basschat / Talkbass wouldn't even know or care either. [/quote] It's interesting you say that, as I imagine smaller builders like 3 leaf very much rely on internet fame to sell their devices, in particular forums. I doubt anyone would have even heard of builders like iron ether and fuzzrocious without that kind of exposure. For boss, digitech, Ibanez etc completely agree with you, but not for boutique builders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mingsta Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 I was ready with my torch and pitchfork, but on reading spencers response maybe it's not quite as black and white as I thought. BURN THEM BOTH!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannybuoy Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 (edited) [quote name='Kev' timestamp='1450647996' post='2934632'] It's interesting you say that, as I imagine smaller builders like 3 leaf very much rely on internet fame to sell their devices, in particular forums. I doubt anyone would have even heard of builders like iron ether and fuzzrocious without that kind of exposure. For boss, digitech, Ibanez etc completely agree with you, but not for boutique builders. [/quote] I think the forums certainly help get them off the ground when they are very small, but Darkglass and 3Leaf are now larger than that. I would hazard a guess at present more of their pedals are sold due to word of mouth, artist endorsements, social media and store presence, and most of the buyers not active on the forums. Of course I don't have any data to bass that on, but most of the bassists I've met (not including ones met through BC of course!) have either never heard of Talkbass / Basschat, or have done but are not active on them enough to know or care about the back story or have any kind of brand loyalty. I have been on both forums for years, have 3 Darkglass pedals, and have even received freebies from Doug, so have a degree of brand loyalty. But if I thought the Vulcan XL sounded better than my B7K, I would make the switch without hesitation, because they are tools and I want the best tool for the job. So if only a fraction of buyers are active on the forums, and only a fraction of them place politics / brand loyalty above price / performance, I don't think the way Spencer is conducting business will have a huge negative impact on sales. All very much IMHO of course! Edited December 20, 2015 by dannybuoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibob Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 You cannot copyright a schematic, only layout of the PCB. I could release a B3K 100% schem clone tomorrow and I would have no legal questions to answer if I'd redesigned the PCB layout. Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 [quote name='Sibob' timestamp='1450650963' post='2934665'] You cannot copyright a schematic, only layout of the PCB. I could release a B3K 100% schem clone tomorrow and I would have no legal questions to answer if I'd redesigned the PCB layout. Si [/quote] That's what I thought! Thanks Si! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0175westwood29 Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 [quote name='Sibob' timestamp='1450650963' post='2934665'] You cannot copyright a schematic, only layout of the PCB. I could release a B3K 100% schem clone tomorrow and I would have no legal questions to answer if I'd redesigned the PCB layout. Si [/quote] So can we close this thread now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannybuoy Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 (edited) [quote name='0175westwood29' timestamp='1450721726' post='2935245'] So can we close this thread now? [/quote] We've only just begun! I'm interested to hear more demos now that a few people have got their hands on them. Edited December 21, 2015 by dannybuoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0175westwood29 Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 [quote name='dannybuoy' timestamp='1450727411' post='2935316'] We've only just begun! I'm interested to hear more demos now that a few people have got their hands on them. [/quote] lol i did throw pike an email, seeing if they fancied sending me one to do a demo of....... ANDY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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