3Leaf appear to have released new Drive pedals under Pike Amplification name

[Guinness21]

Wonder what's happened there? That's annoying, means you'd have to order from the US.

[Clarky72]

Eurghh... .the link is dead

http://www.bassdirect.co.uk/bass_guitar_specialists/Pike_Amplification_XL_Bass_preamp.html

[Guinness21]

Well that's that drama finished.

[Clarky72]

So who's going to buy one from the US then? We still need an A/B test

[Guinness21]

[quote name='Clarky72' timestamp='1452073630' post='2946031']
So who's going to buy one from the US then? We still need an A/B test
[/quote]

Yes we do!

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='HazBeen' timestamp='1451482547' post='2940838']
So I got myself the larger PIKE. It is a little too big for my pedalboard though and I am not sure what hole to stick the jack in...

[url="http://s87.photobucket.com/user/welcometombh/media/images_zpsytolw2v9.jpg.html"][/url]
[/quote]

Well, if you think about it, there's one input and one output...

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='Kev' timestamp='1450603647' post='2934134']
Circuit board comparisons up on Talkbass. Interested to hear Spencer's 'explanation' as to why the circuit boards are near identical too, bar a few value changes and a small section in the middle which one presumes is this 'second drive circuit'.
[/quote]

Oh! I love this game! Can i play?

[attachment=208789:511.png]

Clearly some similarities in the PCB layout with added features wich will most definetly change the overal sound of the pedal.

Edit: Even though the PCB has the same size and shape of the B7K and most of the layout is the same these aren't B7K's spare PCB's, new tracks were added for the new components and some of the same components have been slightly relocated.
I'm sure that Spencer did this from scratch, taking the base of the B7K and altered the PCB's design to accomodate his mods. It would be very difficult to come up with a new PCB design totaly different from the original wilst retaining the knobs in the pre-drilled enclosure positions.
I won't comment about the ethics of this.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Ghost_Bass

[Sibob]

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1452090587' post='2946270']
Oh! I love this game! Can i play?

[attachment=208789:511.png]

Clearly some similarities in the PCB layout with added features wich will most definetly change the overal sound of the pedal.
[/quote]

The ribbon cabling does look neater

Si

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='Sibob' timestamp='1452091233' post='2946278']
The ribbon cabling does look neater

Si
[/quote]

Yep, it's one of the things i love in Spencer's builds, he takes pride in having everything neat and tidy. A lot of boutique pedals come with a huge tangle of lose wires inside.Don't know if the B7K in my pic is the new one (those wires look fragile and messy) but i remember seeing the guts of one with the ribbon cable, maybe a USA version built by spencer or the latest Finnish version from Doug.

edit: here:

[url="http://www.talkbass.com/threads/pike-amplification-vulcan-od-3-leaf-audio-new-company.1190555/page-11"][URL="http://www.talkbass.com/threads/pike-amplification-vulcan-od-3-leaf-audio-new-company.1190555/page-11#post-18069490"]Pike Amplification Vulcan OD -3 Leaf Audio New Company?[/URL][/url]

from the looks of the switch it doesn't look like the ones Spencer used. Maybe Doug also took some knowledge from that partenership All good and fair from my point of view.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Ghost_Bass

[Kev]

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1452090587' post='2946270']
Oh! I love this game! Can i play?

[attachment=208789:511.png]

Clearly some similarities in the PCB layout with added features wich will most definetly change the overal sound of the pedal.

Edit: Even though the PCB has the same size and shape of the B7K and most of the layout is the same these aren't B7K's spare PCB's, new tracks were added for the new components and some of the same components have been slightly relocated.
I'm sure that Spencer did this from scratch, taking the base of the B7K and altered the PCB's design to accomodate his mods. It would be very difficult to come up with a new PCB design totaly different from the original wilst retaining the knobs in the pre-drilled enclosure positions.
I won't comment about the ethics of this.
[/quote]

When you have to start drawing circles on circuits to show how they are different, I think that quite clearly demonstrates how different they truly are.

There are strong feelings on either side of the argument it is clear, Doug has answered queries raised by the 3Leaf crowd on Talkbass as much as he has felt he could, sadly since his initial comment (which raised many questions) I do not believe Spencer has come back to talk about his product at all, but I may have missed something there. But anyway, neither are going to agree so it is probably best for all involved that we just let this die. I do regret starting the thread with my personal opinion so prominent, as opposed to perhaps starting with a more neutral ground, but there you go.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Kev

[Bigwan]

Seem to be a lot of electronic "experts" around all of a sudden. Every single component on Spencer's board could be a different value and at the range those pictures have been taken you couldn't tell with the naked eye. The joy of surface mount components is you usually need a magnifying glass to tell their value. Ask me how I know...

You can be pretty sure based on the different layouts that the drive circuits are EXTREMELY UNLIKELY to be the same.

I've taken the time to partially reverse engineer the original b3k pcb layout (from way back - it was posted for all to see on one of the DIY forums) and the drive circuit takes up VERY little real estate on the board. The rest is taken up with copious buffering and blending. The actual drive circuit is suspiciously similar to the few other CMOS circuits out there... Red Llama, Craig Anderton's tube sound fuzz... So who are we trying to kid here.

I'd also point out that the market for boutique muff and tube screamer derivatives is HUGE. At least as big as the market for the originals! So even if the drive WAS the same, nobody is crucifying the 99% of boutique builders who are doing exactly the same thing.

In my opinion Spencer has no case to answer, except in being naive enough to think that the visual similarity of the enclosure artwork wouldn't raise a few eyebrows.

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='Bigwan' timestamp='1452108698' post='2946557']
Seem to be a lot of electronic "experts" around all of a sudden. Every single component on Spencer's board could be a different value and at the range those pictures have been taken you couldn't tell with the naked eye. The joy of surface mount components is you usually need a magnifying glass to tell their value. Ask me how I know...

You can be pretty sure based on the different layouts that the drive circuits are EXTREMELY UNLIKELY to be the same.

I've taken the time to partially reverse engineer the original b3k pcb layout (from way back - it was posted for all to see on one of the DIY forums) and the drive circuit takes up VERY little real estate on the board. The rest is taken up with copious buffering and blending. The actual drive circuit is suspiciously similar to the few other CMOS circuits out there... Red Llama, Craig Anderton's tube sound fuzz... So who are we trying to kid here.

I'd also point out that the market for boutique muff and tube screamer derivatives is HUGE. At least as big as the market for the originals! So even if the drive WAS the same, nobody is crucifying the 99% of boutique builders who are doing exactly the same thing.

In my opinion Spencer has no case to answer, except in being naive enough to think that the visual similarity of the enclosure artwork wouldn't raise a few eyebrows.
[/quote]

This was the point i was trying to make when i draw those color circles. It's obvious that Spencer started this build with the B7K as a base point - and to me this is a fair move given his goal. He wanted to design a drive pedal to fit the existing cases so it would be easier to use the PCB layout he had from the B7K because he already knew it would fit the enclosures.
From the PCB's pics we can see that he didn't just copied/cloned the B3K, he went a bit further modding it, adding components and a second drive and redesigning the PCB's tracks for the new circuit.

Shame that he had to make it look so alike the DG pedals, with a different enclosure and PCB this thread would have never existed and people would be more focused in buying the Vulcan and A-B'ing it with the DG stuff.

Personally, i would have tried to make a diferent fx for those enclosures or even ofered them for Doug to buy, then the drives woul have been made in a whole new design.

It's hard to comment on the ethics of this, the similarities in look say ripoff but the circuit and sound say it's not a copy... we'll all have to agree in disagree

Cheers

[BigBassBob]

All controversy aside I'm curious to hear what these pedals are like once people have had their hands on them for a while.

I REALLY like the B7K and, in my humble opinion, its modern, baked-in sound isn't that discernible in a full band-setting (at least how I use it) and I find I can tune it to be a clean boost (with some EQing), a bit gritty to producing metallic hellfire.

I do wonder if the the Vulcan XL is more my thing though....

[Guinness21]

[quote name='BigBassBob' timestamp='1452188636' post='2947461']
All controversy aside I'm curious to hear what these pedals are like once people have had their hands on them for a while.

I REALLY like the B7K and, in my humble opinion, its modern, baked-in sound isn't that discernible in a full band-setting (at least how I use it) and I find I can tune it to be a clean boost (with some EQing), a bit gritty to producing metallic hellfire.

I do wonder if the the Vulcan XL is more my thing though....
[/quote]

Sound like a broken record, but me too!

[Kev]

Do we know what happened at Bass Direct? It still sells coming soon on their 3Leaf page, but they certainly did have a sales page for them.

[Clarky72]

This is what Mark said when I asked: "[font=arial, sans-serif][size=3]Due to diplomatic reasons we are no longer selling Pike."[/size][/font]

[dannybuoy]

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='Clarky72' timestamp='1452244454' post='2947899']
This is what Mark said when I asked: "[font=arial, sans-serif][size=3]Due to diplomatic reasons we are no longer selling Pike."[/size][/font]
[/quote]

WTF??? He might aswell have said "Due to pressure from another manufacturer we are no longer selling Pike."

It's understandable that he removed Pike from the list, DG sells more and generates a bigger income, i don't blame him, but if it's confirmed that DG forced him to cancel the Pike deal then they'll now look as bad in the picture as Spencer did...

[Kev]

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1452249530' post='2947971']


WTF??? He might aswell have said "Due to pressure from another manufacturer we are no longer selling Pike."

It's understandable that he removed Pike from the list, DG sells more and generates a bigger income, i don't blame him, but if it's confirmed that DG forced him to cancel the Pike deal then they'll now look as bad in the picture as Spencer did...
[/quote]

Following numerous conversations with Doug, he doesn't care less about it and just finds it all a little sad really. He has said to me he just wants to move on from it and concentrate on his own releases, of which there will be many this year.

I don't think this will be Darkglass pressure at all.

[Billy Apple]

[quote name='Clarky72' timestamp='1452244454' post='2947899']
This is what Mark said when I asked: "[font=arial, sans-serif][size=3]Due to diplomatic reasons we are no longer selling Pike."[/size][/font]
[/quote]

Under the counter. In a brown paper bag. Like old porny mags

[Bigwan]

[quote name='Kev' timestamp='1452260035' post='2948172']
I don't think this will be Darkglass pressure at all.
[/quote]

Err... How do you work that out then? Mark is a businessman. As my grandfather would say "the only thing soft about him are his teeth". I'd say the only reason he won't sell something people want us if he loosing out in other ways. Doug, or somebody at darkglass, has played the "sell Pike, no more darkglass for you" card, or hinted at it. What else would "diplomatic reasons" mean? He has to keep his suppliers sweet. He's bound to sell A LOT of darkglass pedals. Call me a cynic...

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='Kev' timestamp='1452260035' post='2948172']
I don't think this will be Darkglass pressure at all.
[/quote]

You must admit that it's a strange move from Mark. "Diplomatic reasons" sounds like a big hint that he doesn't want any kind of beef with Darkglass.

Only he knows why he went back with Pike. Mark is allways on top of the gear news, i don't believe that he would have close a deal with Pike not knowing all the fuss that has been around the forums and going back with the deal after having it posted on the site.
I also can't prove that DG pressured Mark in removing the Pike from his stock but [b]IMO[/b] it sure looks like it.

All a can say for sure is that Mark made the smart move, he removed himself from the fight (at the cost of possibly getting Spencer angry and losing the 3Leaf distribution deal) but i'm sure he sells more DG inventory than 3Leaf and Pike put together.

Good for him, shame on whoever caused this and very bad for us!

[Kev]

[quote name='Bigwan' timestamp='1452268923' post='2948340']


Err... How do you work that out then?
[/quote]

I said why I thought that in my post.

With regards to Mark, he has pretty strong views on bass equipment as any who have dealt with him would know, I wouldn't be surprised if he made the decision not to sell them himself.

However, I personally think him removing them from sale is more likely due to the hullabaloo about them at the moment, albeit a little odd as it is mainly on Talkbass, given that most participants in this thread have been defending Pike. Although, I think Facebook has been quite bad for Spencer, he is deleting an awful lot of comments.

I may well be proven wrong if it comes out, but I repeat I do not think Doug (the only one at DG who would make the decision) would go this route, as he simply doesn't need to. Pike are not a real threat to DG sales, certainly no more of a threat than any of the other high end drive pedals out there at the moment.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Kev

[Darkglass]

Hey guys!

Whoa, the drama continues, unfortunately.

I have tried to stay out of this whole situation as much as possible on forums: I started Darkglass because there's nothing I love more than designing electronic circuits and making bass sound good.

All this drama, conjecture and confrontation are very distracting and I really don't think they help anyone.

That being said, I feel obliged to clarify any assumptions that I feel are baseless or simply inaccurate:

If anyone thinks that I would or could coerce Mark from Bass Direct into doing anything against his will clearly doesn't know me or him very well, I've gone through enough owning and running a business to know that blackmail is a very poor business move in the long run and hope to never be naive and foolish enough to go that route.

Mark is a great guy, he was our first dealer and has continued to be a great one throughout the years, he's always been very pleasant and fair but he's no push over. Aside from that, I'm pretty sure Darkglass accounts for a very modest portion of his business - he deals, many times with exclusivity much bigger brands - it's reasonable to assume that I don't have nearly as much muscle as some of you think I have.

Mark is his own man and I'm quite confident me nor anyone can tell him what to sell or not to sell at his store.

Hopes this helps clarify some of this so we can move on, I for sure already have.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Darkglass

[0175westwood29]

Looking forward to trying out these pair.

[URL=http://s245.photobucket.com/user/0175westwood29/media/12469513_10156458262275565_4787544105055373265_o.jpg.html][IMG]http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg72/0175westwood29/12469513_10156458262275565_4787544105055373265_o.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

Andy