Wayne Firefly Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 We play a lot in all sorts of places and I have come to the conclusion that sometimes, the sound engineer is an enemy of bass. Thats what I have ended up calling them. 8 out of 10 times, no problems at all, usually friendly and helpful, we all get on and get the job done, no hassles and maybe even a couple of drinks afterwards. We all know the rules about not upsetting the sound engineer, (same reason not to upset a waiter - special sauce etc) best to go over with a smile and introduce yourself and be polite and friendly. Usually works fine, no probs but sometimes....... Some are just miserable, some just downright rude, some are complete A holes. I tend to find, the more professional the PA guys, the less hassle they are and get the job done quicker. The weekend warrior types tend to be the ones who complain more and have the crappy attitudes. How often do you come across engineers who are a pain in the A hole ?? Have you any funny or interesting stories about some of the more entertaining characters Im sure you have met along the way ??? Bad attitudes, nasty comments, totally unhelpful, totally no understanding etc etc, you know what I mean.... Enemies of bass !!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 No, I don't think they are..it is just that in some places their hands are tied and the easiest thing to sacrifice is the bass...so that is what they do. At a top level, where people can and do pay for the very best, it can still be a problem so I don't think there is an agenda for the most part. If people were in work who thought like that, they wouldn't be serving their client very well... At local level, finding a quality engr with quality kit who knows how to use it is harder but in a game where your last gig is your reference, it makes no sense to employ someone who just isn't going to try and do the best job within their remit.. Of course, the parameters of that remit are huge and varied but the goal, attitude or thinking shouldn't be..IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamdenRob Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 In my general experience of life an 8 out of 10 ratio of reasonable guy to a***hole is pretty exceptional... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerstodge Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 Not quite what you're saying but i went to see Wilko Johnson some years back at the Standard in Walthamstow, 6 songs in and the bass was non existent , i went up to the sound engineer and very politely told him that there was a bass god playing, and he may as well unplug his bass, a few minutes later the walls were shaking, good job i was there Norman you owe me a pint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 I think JT has it here - the bass is the easiest instrument for them to overlook/do on the quick. I read constantly about how sound-men have things difficult etc, and I`m sure it`s not easy, but imagine a band with a completely clean guitar sound, and then said sound-man puts huge amounts of drive on it FOH? Well to me that`s not much different from getting a bass that`s been eq`d in specific way with added drive etc, to fit in the bands sound, creating the bands identity, then just being put flat from a DI box to FOH. This kind of thing can destroy a bands sound - a few weeks back similar was attempted on my bass. I have a scooped mids/driven, gnarly twangy sound, which seeing as we are a 3-piece is almost like a rhythm guitar, a bit JJ Burnell, a bit Lemmy. And what was wanted was a flat, no-drive Precision sound through FOH. Identity of band killed by one decision - if I`d let it. People who hear our album would probably not think "oh the bass sounded eq`d wrong" they`d probably just think the band don`t sound like their recordings live - not what we want at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Firefly Posted April 21, 2015 Author Share Posted April 21, 2015 Thats exactly what Im on about !!! When we have done bigger festivals, the fact I have a similar sound (it sounds like to me) is not a problem at all. Smaller venues or whatever, the soundman usually argues the bass is too trebly / raspy and infers that he would prefer if I got a sunburst, tortoise shell pickguard rosewood Precision with flats on a Mark King length strap, stood next to the hi hats, play with my fingers, keep my mouth shut. We played recently in Oldham where the hippy type know it all soundman gave me that exact attitude, then when he was trying to speak to our guitar player, I stepped up and asked if I could help him (as the guitar player was busy doing something else) he said he wanted to speak to the organ grinder, not the monkey. From that point, I only spoke to him in 'F' and 'C' related expletives. Luckily enough this was right at the end of the gig so no harm done but he did make me more sure that my theory is correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancient Mariner Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Some sound engineers are the enemies of music, rather than bass specifically. There's a kind of order of priority for some which goes something like vocals>acoustic stringed instrument>keyboard>wind instrument>bass>electric guitar. Cue large amounts of frustration and, where possible, lots of cranking of amps. Not everyone is like that by any means, but I recall being pleasantly surprised recently when I could actually hear the guitar and bass clearly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahpook Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 [quote name='Wayne Firefly' timestamp='1429536727' post='2752356'] I tend to find, the more professional the PA guys, the less hassle they are and get the job done quicker. [/quote] Well, you would hope so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironside1966 Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 There are good sound men and there are bad ones, the higher up the food chain you are the less likely you will get the bad ones but you still get them. There are also great sounding venues and really bad sounding venues that even the skills of a great sound man will only go so far. It's not always the sound engineers fault, there are bands and bass players out there who are difficult to work with and make it imposable to get a great sound. You can't do anything about the first two but you make sure you are not the latter. So the question should be, How do I make sure I get the best bass sound out front that works well in the context of the music and is sympathetic with the venues acoustics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the boy Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Yes. Be very careful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrenochrome Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Bad attitudes, not so much to be honest. There are a number of Old School sound engineers who prefer a muffled thud for a bass sound, who you need to work with to get something like 'your' sound out front. One of the nicest and most helpful guys I ever met and worked with, Italian Tony, was a bassist and sound engineer - sadly missed . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huge Hands Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 I notice there are a lot of threads about this sort of thing at the moment. As a former sound engineer, all I can say is that not everything is black or white, good or s**t. There can be a myriad of factors. One can indeed be that the engineer is hopeless. However, for example, one could be the acoustics of the room generating standing waves or issues, so s/he's notched stuff out. Or that the PA is underpowered and full-on bass could trip/blow amps/speakers so the engineer is being careful. There could be something out of phase. There could be a fault. There could be an issue with the bass player's gear. I have done multi-band nights where one band thinks I'm a fantastic engineer, and the next one thinks I'm s**t. A lot of it is to do with perception. No matter how professional we think we're all being, an engineer will add their own personal taste to a mix, so they do have to be considered. This is why bands that tour with an engineer often stick with the same one for years. Remember, a good gig is also a two way street. I've said this before, but it is usually one engineer against 5 or so good mates in a band. The engineer has to find a way to get on with your band. If you make them feel welcome and that you're willing to be cooperative, they will relax and it should make for a better nights. However, if visiting bands are continually not engaging and generally having bad attitudes, an engineer's tolerance threshold will probably be quite low! Finally though, I do acknowledge that some engineers can be tw*ts and will never get on with anyone. I've met quite a few in my time! Perhaps we should invite some of the current crop of engineers who reside on this forum (I have been out of the live audio game for about 12 years) to start a thread about some bass players being enemies of sound..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 The other aspect is do you know what limits the venue are working too? maybe they can't push too much because they are working to sound limit factors. Are they working with poor quality system? I'm in venue's everyday looking at PA and you'd be surprised how many have blown drivers.... Drivers that have been replaced with non manufacturer product and cheap far eastern ones because of budgets... Just because the PA has a name on the front doesn't mean its got the components inside. I always find these threads amusing that muso's often think they know me than the engineer (which in some cases may be) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huge Hands Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 [quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1429629447' post='2753412'] The other aspect is do you know what limits the venue are working too? maybe they can't push too much because they are working to sound limit factors. Are they working with poor quality system? I'm in venue's everyday looking at PA and you'd be surprised how many have blown drivers.... Drivers that have been replaced with non manufacturer product and cheap far eastern ones because of budgets... Just because the PA has a name on the front doesn't mean its got the components inside. [/quote] Ha ha well said - I could probably fill my own thread with tales on this sort of thing. I can even remember reconing speakers without a jig - just by eye and feel - some lasted 10 minutes , some lasted years! [quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1429629447' post='2753412'] I always find these threads amusing that muso's often think they know me than the engineer (which in some cases may be) [/quote] Hear hear! Harrumph! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 My only real assessment of these things is, has the sound engineer made the sound of the instruments louder and got them all in amix where they can be heard fairly well together, or have they changed the sound of the instruments to suit how they like to hear things in a mix, whilst still getting levels equal. If it`s the former, well done, if the latter, not so well done. Doesn`t matter to me whether it`s the bass/glockenspiel/guitar/keyboards, whydo they want to change it - surely the band have practised with those sounds for the reason that they are the sounds desired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Firefly Posted April 22, 2015 Author Share Posted April 22, 2015 (edited) Its not about room acoustics or the actual PA system, just the attitudes of some engineers. Some are friendly and on it, like I said, I usually go over with a smile and introduce myself in a friendly manner but sometimes it dosent matter what you do, you cant avoid A holes. We played up in Gateshead a few years back and WERE TOLD TO GET THERE FOR 5PM TO LOAD IN AT ANY COST so we bust our balls to get there at 5pm, which we did, only to sit outside till 7PM until the sound engineer came to open up. To which I asked him where the effin hell he'd been.... to which he replied it was our own fault for getting there too early then no bass in the PA. I learned an important lesson that night. Edited April 22, 2015 by Wayne Firefly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerstodge Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 [quote name='Wayne Firefly' timestamp='1429706317' post='2754126'] Its not about room acoustics or the actual PA system, just the attitudes of some engineers. Some are friendly and on it, like I said, I usually go over with a smile and introduce myself in a friendly manner but sometimes it dosent matter what you do, you cant avoid A holes. We played up in Gateshead a few years back and WERE TOLD TO GET THERE FOR 5PM TO LOAD IN AT ANY COST so we bust our balls to get there at 5pm, which we did, only to sit outside till 7PM until the sound engineer came to open up. To which I asked him where the effin hell he'd been.... to which he replied it was our own fault for getting there too early then no bass in the PA. I learned an important lesson that night. [/quote]i used to get that all the time, get to the venues for 5 pm and sit outside for 2 hrs bastards.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjones Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 The worst band sound I ever heard, weirdly had the best bass sound. I went to see my brother in law playing guitar with Maggie bell at the Festival theatre in Edinburgh. The sound engineers were a couple of muppets and the band sound was atrocious. But the bass sounded great. Go figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolverinebass Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 [quote name='Wayne Firefly' timestamp='1429706317' post='2754126'] Its not about room acoustics or the actual PA system, just the attitudes of some engineers. Some are friendly and on it, like I said, I usually go over with a smile and introduce myself in a friendly manner but sometimes it dosent matter what you do, you cant avoid A holes. We played up in Gateshead a few years back and WERE TOLD TO GET THERE FOR 5PM TO LOAD IN AT ANY COST so we bust our balls to get there at 5pm, which we did, only to sit outside till 7PM until the sound engineer came to open up. To which I asked him where the effin hell he'd been.... to which he replied it was our own fault for getting there too early then no bass in the PA. I learned an important lesson that night. [/quote] So would he if that'd happened to me. It would have been "don't act like a tool if you don't have dental insurance." For me it's an attitude thing as well. If someone is willing to at least listen to what you want then that's great. It's when they won't that problems arise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 As said, it can be the case the guy is working with bad acoustics, etc. Whatever the situation I always try and chat to him beforehand if possible - not to put forth my requirements, but to try and find out what the situation will likely be and if not exactly 100%, make sympathetic noises, buy him a drink and so on. [i]Then[/i] put forth my requirements... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironside1966 Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Was it the Sound engineers fault that you were told to arrive at too early? I was a pro live sound engineer for a number of years but like Huge Hands I feel I have been out of the game too long to comment too much but what I do know is I would not turn up two hours too early without good reason. I worked quickly and hate long sound checks and the majority of the people I worked for where the same. I hate rudeness and bad manners, there is never any need for it but sometimes I have had to give it the school teacher act when bands were messing about or musicians just won't shut up or acting unprofessional. Unfortunately some bands Idea of a sound check is to stand out front and shout orders on how they want their instruments sound. A sound check is for the musicians to get their stage sound and the engineer to get levels and to make sure there is no problems. Problems only starts when musicians concentrate on my job rather than getting a good stage sound. the way I do things is I make the sound louder and the instruments and vocals more cohesive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 [quote name='ironside1966' timestamp='1429736739' post='2754520'] ...A sound check is for the musicians to get their stage sound and the engineer to get levels and to make sure there is no problems... [/quote] +1 Believe it or not people don't seem to realise this. I've done countless gigs where other band members afterwards said 'I couldn't hear myself' and it turns out they didn't let the sound guy know what they wanted in their monitor, and at what level. I've worked with some great sound guys, but you can't really expect them to be psychic as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Firefly Posted April 23, 2015 Author Share Posted April 23, 2015 Im in a touring band, had many many years at the sharp end. We get strict instructions from venues what time they expect us to be there and we strive to be as professional as possible and cause as least amount of hassle and stress. We have our routine down pat. Fast and efficient. We know what we need, usually really simple and quick. Its funny how I can get through to a monitor man who didnt speak any English in Colombia just by being nice and having a friendly nature whereas another example of a Clash sounding gig on the outskirts of Manchester, the soundman was hostile from the off. We throw our gear on quick, I have two amp rigs to set up, mine and the singer's Marshall. Usual thing, slightly bigger stage than usual club stuff, point the cabs facing our respective mics, level with the front edge of the drum riser. Same old thing, when this little guy comes up almost screaming at me THE 'BACKLINE' GOES AT THE 'BACK'.....THATS WHY ITS CALLED BACKLINE as he carried on dragging my cab and the Marshall to the very back of the stage... now we are at his mercy with monitors only....at this point any attempts at being diplomatic are shot to pieces so with a 20 min change over complete and line checked, the general atmosphere before we played was utter s**t just because this little mentalist went waaaay over the top. Now I appreciate he didnt want to be there but its not like he HAD to right ?? Im holding a gun to your daughter's head... you'd better do their sound.... When we came off, I got talking to the other bands and about four bands on before us all had similar reports and one rather large skinhead type gentleman was ready to give him a bit of a telling off. We never went back, I spoke to the organisers and asked if he was ok or had had any family trauma etc but no, he just hated being there. Not much could be done in that case. Guy was a complete c***. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrismanbass Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 some sound engineers just find musicians a bit inconvenient as in the whole gig would be a lot better if there were no musicians to get in the way of them setting up mics or ask for anything in their monitors..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 I got a sound engineer to mic my cab the other night without looking at me like I'd sh*t on the stage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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