Why do we have to put up with bass bass sound at larger venues?

[jazzyvee]

Is it just me who wants to hear what the bass player is playing at large venues? Is it just physics, bad engineering and I have to live with not hearing what our bass playing brothers and sisters are doing?

For a recent example. I went to a Parliament Funkadelic gig last night at the O2 Academy in Brum. The gig was awesome by the way. But there was an enormous amount of bottom end coming through the FOH PA mainly from the kick drum and bottom end of the bass. As a result but I could see what the bass player was doing but not hear the individual notes just an overall "in key" sound. Because I knew most of the songs the band played I was able to imagine what the bass line was in my head. He was playing a two pickup musicman, i think it was a Sterling 5 HH and from what I know from owning a musician bass before, they do have a good sound in the mids so there is no reason I can see why that wouldn't be possible to get out front. Even when he came out front to play a slap solo his sound had no midrange at all so most of it was inaudible. Is this something I have to live with or do sound guys need to up their game and make the bass heard clearly as well as being felt?
It really is a disappointment for me and puts me off going to large venue gigs.

[JTUK]

Yes, always a problem where the bass just inhabits a void and fills... and the kick gives it the pulse.
Must be easy being a bass player if that is all you have to do... and you only get to hear the real bass
if solo'd. Why the sonic space is divided up like this, I'm not sure..
I think the bass is too easy an instrument to sacrifice and also Engrs are too keen getting the sub out there
which certainly doesn't help retain bass definition.. In less that ideal acoustic environments bass spillage is
easily going to get out of control,..so maybe the default position is to underpin rather than enhance the sound
as it will spill everywhere anyway so instead of losing control, you give it away
I blame the mass of subs they want to use to the full..??

Edited April 20, 2015 by JTUK

[spacey]

I would like to run a good old fashioned spectrum analyser across these systems to see if there is a gap in the lower Mid where the bass sits.
When I ran a touring rig that was mainly martin 115 and 215 bins we never had any issue with getting a decent crack from the bass.
I must admit, I find the bass sound at gigs has gone seriously down hill, it either a modern fashion of sound, or just the fascination with Sub bass swamps everything in the lower range.

[ahpook]

JTUK and Spacey may be onto something here - maybe it's the influence of dance music, which seems to be in a cock-waving competition about how low it can all go. Mega sub-bass may sound impressive on kick drums (if you like that kind if thing), but for a pitched instrument ?

I dunno - I'm not a sound engineer, but as has been said on other threads, the treatment of the bottom end for live events does IMHO sound awful to what it used to.

But then I'm getting to be an old gimmer, so it was all better in the past wasn't it ?

[tedmanzie]

[quote name='jazzyvee' timestamp='1429520158' post='2752105']
Is it just me who wants to hear what the bass player is playing at large venues? Is it just physics, bad engineering and I have to live with not hearing what our bass playing brothers and sisters are doing?

For a recent example. I went to a Parliament Funkadelic gig last night at the O2 Academy in Brum. The gig was awesome by the way. But there was an enormous amount of bottom end coming through the FOH PA mainly from the kick drum and bottom end of the bass. As a result but I could see what the bass player was doing but not hear the individual notes just an overall "in key" sound. Because I knew most of the songs the band played I was able to imagine what the bass line was in my head. He was playing a two pickup musicman, i think it was a Sterling 5 HH and from what I know from owning a musician bass before, they do have a good sound in the mids so there is no reason I can see why that wouldn't be possible to get out front. Even when he came out front to play a slap solo his sound had no midrange at all so most of it was inaudible. Is this something I have to live with or do sound guys need to up their game and make the bass heard clearly as well as being felt?
It really is a disappointment for me and puts me off going to large venue gigs.
[/quote]

Totally agree. I've seen SO many gigs where 'sound engineers' have no idea of how to get a good sound - depth charge bass drums, wooly room filling sub, smiley face eq on bass guitars, and the worst one of all - turn everything up as far as it can go for the last 20 mins...

[SteveK]

There are an infinite number of reasons for poor sound in a venue, here's just a few:

Rooms not designed for music, different shapes, materials used in the building, furnishings etc all affecting sound. Walk around a venue during a performance and hear how drastically the sound changes from one position to another.
PAs not up to the job.
Poorly positioned and set up PAs.
Sound engineers not experienced/qualified to deal with dodgy acoustics.
Musicians too loud on stage.
Bands that try to reproduce their [b]recorded[/b] arrangements on stage - maybe an idea to rethink that fast 16s bass synth part for the enormoshed tour!
Bands that just aren't very good.

[quote]maybe it's the influence of dance music[/quote]
Live sound production has always been hit and miss, not just since the advent of electronic dance music.

[spectoremg]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1429527799' post='2752218']
There are an infinite number of reasons for poor sound in a venue, here's just a few:

Rooms not designed for music, different shapes, materials used in the building, furnishings etc all affecting sound. Walk around a venue during a performance and hear how drastically the sound changes from one position to another.
PAs not up to the job.
Poorly positioned and set up PAs.
Sound engineers not experienced/qualified to deal with dodgy acoustics.
Musicians too loud on stage.
Bands that try to reproduce their [b]recorded[/b] arrangements on stage - maybe an idea to rethink that fast 16s bass synth part for the enormoshed tour!
Bands that just aren't very good.


Live sound production has always been hit and miss, not just since the advent of electronic dance music.
[/quote]This. I also think it's always been a problem and engineers have a tough job to some extent. I only realised a few years ago after a conversation with a relative who's a monitor engineer that FOH is the poor relation - musicians care much more about what they hear.
Never mind walking around a venue, move around your lounge when you're listening to music and see how the dynamics change. There's a sweet spot at home in the same way there is in an often huge venue.

[ahpook]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1429527799' post='2752218']
Live sound production has always been hit and miss, not just since the advent of electronic dance music.
[/quote]

Well aware of that, but I certainly don't remember as many 'soaked in sub' gigs when I was younger - but then the technology perhaps wasn't so readily available to extend the bottom end to (what I would consider) unnecessary levels.

Edited April 20, 2015 by ahpook

[Truckstop]

But all of those issues can be solved by simply turning the bass frequencies right down. If it's a poor room, kill the bass. On everything.

If the bass has been turned down, then you can cut the volume of everything else because it's not trying to be heard over all the subby litter that's bouncing off all the walls.

I actually cut everything under 250hz when I run the desk for my band and it always sounds good. Everything sounds nice and crisp, I can get more volume out of the PA and the vocals sound especially clear and distinct.

[Mr Arkadin]

It does seem the underlying trend that no-one cuts frequencies anymore. It's all about the bass after all...

Even mixing at home I cut like crazy - start with a basic 80Hz cut on most ibnstruments and raise it to at least 150Hz. This is on instruments that are nothing to do with bass and it's often surprising what does contain bass, so I will cut guitars, synths, even cymbal samples.

I'm with Truckstop - cutting is the key.

[SteveK]

[quote name='Truckstop' timestamp='1429538251' post='2752377']
But all of those issues can be solved by simply turning the bass frequencies right down. If it's a poor room, kill the bass. On everything.
[/quote]
If it were as simple as that this thread wouldn't exist and punters would have no complaints.
Something worth mentioning: Some FOH engineers deliberately go for a mix with no definition, thinking "Hi-Fi is for the home, but for the live experience we need power and energy".

EDIT: BTW As the OP mentioned Parliament Funkadelic and the O2 Academy, I am assuming that we're talking professional FOH engineers, and not the guy down the local Firkin whose only qualification is that he has the required number of fingers to twiddle a knob.

Edited April 20, 2015 by SteveK

[Drax]

[quote name='ahpook' timestamp='1429522944' post='2752156']
JTUK and Spacey may be onto something here - maybe it's the influence of dance music, which seems to be in a cock-waving competition about how low it can all go. Mega sub-bass may sound impressive on kick drums (if you like that kind if thing), but for a pitched instrument ?

I dunno - I'm not a sound engineer, but as has been said on other threads, the treatment of the bottom end for live events does IMHO sound awful to what it used to.

But then I'm getting to be an old gimmer, so it was all better in the past wasn't it ?
[/quote]

Nowadays it's a club where you'll hear the best bass definition through a PA. Since Funktion-One became industry standard, volume in watts is down and clarity had gone up - but I guess these are smaller spaces.

Hasn't live bass forever been a mixed bag?

Edited April 20, 2015 by Drax

[SteveK]

[quote name='Drax' timestamp='1429552326' post='2752539']
Hasn't live bass forever been a mixed bag?
[/quote]
Yep!

[Lozz196]

Yep, seems that drums get given huge amounts of lows, and for me the whole band, not just the bass suffers. I went to see a show about a month ago and the drums were miked up to sound just like the drum kit would have sounded acoustically, no emphasising low end, and every instrument was as clear as a bell. It`s that age old thing of something that sounds good soloed isn`t necessarily going to work in the mix - and it seems the trend nowadays is getting that huge "thwack" on the drums, and for me the bass certainly suffers, as does the guitar if a distorted, driven guitar. Clean guitars just about get away with it.

[ahpook]

[quote name='Drax' timestamp='1429552326' post='2752539']
Nowadays it's a club where you'll hear the best bass definition through a PA. Since Funktion-One became industry standard, volume in watts is down and clarity had gone up - but I guess these are smaller spaces.
[/quote]

I had to look up what 'Fuktion-One' was !

Edited April 20, 2015 by ahpook

[spacey]

Our system ran 4 way cross over, Sub went to 4 x 215 martin, lower mid went to 2 x 115 martin, mid to JBL 2x12 2125 I think they were called, 4 of those and 2 x 2" JBL horn and 2x 1" rcf horns on crackle diffuser plates, that was one side.
About a realistic 8k rig in old school money
Now if I think, the bass guitar probably sat in the 115 bins so almost had its own set of bins to push out, anyone who was anyone played that rig at Leeds refectory and other venues and the bass guitar was always crisp, other than than when the "bros" engineer decided to re-wire it and they ended up sounding like they were under pillows, probably the best place for them.
Most bands had their own engineers and most were far better than I was at mixing.
Perhaps the gear was better and the engineers were better in the old days.

[lurksalot]

In answer to the OP , and not intended to be smart in any way , but you don't have to put up with it at all .

Just avoid the warehouse/stadium type gigs , you have a much better chance of hearing clarity in the proper theatre size gigs . If it is the music you want to hear then the stadiums seem poor all the time , but if the overall experience is a must, then I guess it is a compromise.

[lojo]

Went to see the illegal eagles at GLive the other week , fairly modern smallish concert hall, couldn't hear a note the bassist played . Was a shame as the band and singing where great , it lacked the heart beat .

[jazzyvee]

[quote name='lurksalot' timestamp='1429555844' post='2752614']
In answer to the OP , and not intended to be smart in any way , but you don't have to put up with it at all .

Just avoid the warehouse/stadium type gigs , you have a much better chance of hearing clarity in the proper theatre size gigs . If it is the music you want to hear then the stadiums seem poor all the time , but if the overall experience is a must, then I guess it is a compromise.
[/quote]
No problem, not taken as being smart. I'm enjoying reading the inputs to the thread actually. I rarely go to the kind of gigs you mention because hardly any of the bands I like are big enough to play these huge venues. But even at the medium theatre gigs I've attended the sound on the bass guitar is usually lacking clarity. I don't want anyone to think I'm bashing sound engineers, far from it. I'm hoping there is a logical reason to aid my understanding of why this problem occurs in larger venues.

[Derek1071]

Saw Ryan Adams at the Usher Hall in Edinburgh (small to medium theatre-type venue) a few weeks back. Could not believe the lack of definition on the bass guitar - you could just about make out the root notes, otherwise the low end was just a dull thump. May as well have stuck an octave pedal on the rhythm guitar and given the poor bassist the night off....

[tedmanzie]

Laura Marling at Queen Elizabeth Hall last night - from where I was sat it was the same old story - subby depth charge kick, no definition of the bass, too loud (a bit). Surely that venue should be reasonable? Rest of the sound (voice and guitar) was good.

[The Admiral]

[quote name='Derek1071' timestamp='1429563681' post='2752730']
Saw Ryan Adams at the Usher Hall in Edinburgh (small to medium theatre-type venue) a few weeks back. Could not believe the lack of definition on the bass guitar - you could just about make out the root notes, otherwise the low end was just a dull thump. May as well have stuck an octave pedal on the rhythm guitar and given the poor bassist the night off....
[/quote]

I was at that gig too, and couldn't agree more. As an aside, it was the first time I'd seen him live, and only went as a colleague had a spare ticket : I thought he was excellent, just a shame about the sound, which, in a purpose built concert hall, albeit a victorian/edwardian one,one would imagine should have been good.

[Bassistclem]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1429527799' post='2752218']
There are an infinite number of reasons for poor sound in a venue, here's just a few:

Rooms not designed for music, different shapes, materials used in the building, furnishings etc all affecting sound. Walk around a venue during a performance and hear how drastically the sound changes from one position to another.
PAs not up to the job.
Poorly positioned and set up PAs.
Sound engineers not experienced/qualified to deal with dodgy acoustics.
Musicians too loud on stage.
Bands that try to reproduce their [b]recorded[/b] arrangements on stage - maybe an idea to rethink that fast 16s bass synth part for the enormoshed tour!
Bands that just aren't very good.


Live sound production has always been hit and miss, not just since the advent of electronic dance music.
[/quote]

Yes....what he said. Not always the sound engineer to blame.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Bassistclem