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Are all sound engineers drum techs


Dropzone
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As a former sound engineer (and drummer) myself, I think it often stems from the fact that the norm is for engineers to start with the drums during sound check and then balance from there. If they've spent 3 hours getting the bass drum right they may have run out of time to concentrate on the rest :-).

All silliness aside though, I was always a "bassy" mixer due to my preference and love of bass, funk and soul. I was doing it in the early noughties and did notice a trend of younger engineers coming through who were all pulling the bass back and then just mainly having sickeningly loud thudding kick drums in the bottom end of the mix.

You also have to remember that in a lot of venues, the spot at which the engineer is mixing (typically the back of the room) may be different to a spot where you're standing. He (chauvanistically assuming it is a him) might be hearing resonance which is causing him to pull the bass out, which is making it obvious where you are if you're not getting the resonance? That sort of stuff is more relevant if he's a visiting engineer and doesn't know the venue.

Just my ten penneth of course - he could be just a poor engineer!

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I know sod-all about mixing, so my opinion is probably pants, but I often get annoyed at the drum sound at concerts. It seems to me that the engineers spend too much time getting the individual drums to ring out separately, rather than treating the kit as a whole. So you get the big thuddy bass drum and sharp crack from the snare, but to me they sound like they might as well be separate instruments, whereas great drummers always seem to work the kit as a single thing. But maybe I'm unreasonably expecting a live mix to sound like my favourite records or something.

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been getting on my tits for a while now, there's a current fashion for having the bass drum loud in the mix, usually quite clicky which is the frequency the bass sits in, so to give the sound bottom end they EQ the bass right down the result being it's a muddy mess.
It really pissed me off when I went to see the Quo reunion gigs, I wanted them to sound like the did in the early 70's not hear the thum thum of the bass drum all night.
edit, I know sod all about mixing either, but I do like to hear what the bass players doing

Edited by PaulWarning
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[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1424183908' post='2693560']
been getting on my tits for a while now, there's a current fashion for having the bass drum loud in the mix, usually quite clicky which is the frequency the bass sits in, so to give the sound bottom end they EQ the bass right down the result being it's a muddy mess...
[/quote]

To get a clicky "modern metal" bass drum, you need to cut all the mids out, which would leave plenty of room for bass guitar

IME the kick drum sound they go for is to cut everything between 200Hz and 5KHz, then boost sharply at 10KHz

This isn't necessarily a bad approach, as it should leave plenty of room for bass.

I've definitely experienced the phenomena, and we had another quite lengthy thread on the subject only a few weeks ago. What causes it is way beyond me!

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[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1424184651' post='2693569']
To get a clicky "modern metal" bass drum, you need to cut all the mids out, which would leave plenty of room for bass guitar

IME the kick drum sound they [u]should[/u] go for is to cut everything between 200Hz and 5KHz, then boost sharply at 10KHz

This isn't necessarily a bad approach, as it should leave plenty of room for bass.

I've definitely experienced the phenomena, and we had another quite lengthy thread on the subject only a few weeks ago. What causes it is way beyond me!
[/quote]fixed, and only when it's a modern metal band

Edited by PaulWarning
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I'm sure some engineers just want to show of the subs with a heavy kick drum. I'm an a early '60's shadows type band, the lead guitarist has sometimes pulled the cable from the kick drum mic just so the engineer has to let the bass drive the band rather than a modern kick drum. Although no kick on some of these bigger systems probably leaves a massive hole in the mix.

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[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1424185698' post='2693579']
fixed, and only when it's a modern metal band
[/quote]

Honestly, I've seen this at loads of gigs. The kick drum is very scooped, leaving plenty of room for bass guitar, but for whatever reason, you still can't hear the bass guitar.

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The best live sound I've heard in the last year, was The Human League where everything except the vocals was electronically generated, and a German Rockabilly band we did a tour with. Their sound checks were a complete eye-opener. Instead of starting with the drums, they started by getting the vocals as clear and loud as they could and then mixed in all the other instruments underneath. The instrumentation was fairly complex - drums bass, two guitars, sax and three-part vocals, but everything had its own space and the vocals were load and clear without feedback.

The worst sound was HIM which was all drums, high register vocals only and the guitar bass and keyboards blended into a low-frequency mush.

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[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1424186443' post='2693593']
and a German Rockabilly band we did a tour with. Their sound checks were a complete eye-opener. Instead of starting with the drums, they started by getting the vocals as clear and loud as they could and then mixed in all the other instruments underneath. The instrumentation was fairly complex - drums bass, two guitars, sax and three-part vocals, but everything had its own space and the vocals were load and clear without feedback.

[/quote]

I've often wondered (as a non-sound engineer) why this doesn't happen more often - after all, how many people go to a show thinking "Oh, I'm really looking forward to the bass drum sound tonight?" I'm sure most sound engineers will come up with plausible arguments for doing it their way but great to hear somebody is bucking the trend and getting it right.

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[quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1424187210' post='2693611']
I've often wondered (as a non-sound engineer) why this doesn't happen more often - after all, how many people go to a show thinking "Oh, I'm really looking forward to the bass drum sound tonight?" I'm sure most sound engineers will come up with plausible arguments for doing it their way but great to hear somebody is bucking the trend and getting it right.
[/quote]

Probably because like any trade or skill, you learn from watching others and this is how it is usually done. As drums are often the most acoustic instrument on stage, it does make sense to get them under control first and then add things to them, but as with any artistic endeavour, I don't believe that there should be any rules on this, and if you (as in the engineer) want to start by checking the organists pedal board, then do it and stand by your sound.

Also, in my experience, once guitarists and bassists, keyboards etc have plugged in and start to sound check, they want to start widdling around and won't shut up when you want to get to the drums. However, they will often sit together as a group offstage waiting for the drummer to do his thing if he's first.

Cheddatom is totally correct though, there is no reason why kick drum and bass can't live together, and loudly. My issue I was talking about was these huge rigs where the thump of the kick was whacking you in the chest and making you nauseous, and it was detracting from the rest of the sound.

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[quote name='Huge Hands' timestamp='1424188740' post='2693627']
...My issue I was talking about was these huge rigs where the thump of the kick was whacking you in the chest and making you nauseous, and it was detracting from the rest of the sound.
[/quote]

I've not been to many of these gigs. I did read a while ago that this sort of chest thumping is potentially dangerous. I think someone died in Koko from a heart attack which was thought to be linked to the bass. You would think this would scare off the sub-hungry soundmen!

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Digital desks play a part I'm sure. The sound man thinks, here's the preset for kick eq, compression is a memory bank away and voila! I'm going to really light the blue touch paper now and suggest the lack of bass is due to them insisting on a pre eq send.... Stand well back!

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[quote name='Huge Hands' timestamp='1424188740' post='2693627']
Probably because like any trade or skill, you learn from watching others and this is how it is usually done. As drums are often the most acoustic instrument on stage, it does make sense to get them under control first and then add things to them, but as with any artistic endeavour, I don't believe that there should be any rules on this, and if you (as in the engineer) want to start by checking the organists pedal board, then do it and stand by your sound.

Also, in my experience, once guitarists and bassists, keyboards etc have plugged in and start to sound check, they want to start widdling around and won't shut up when you want to get to the drums. However, they will often sit together as a group offstage waiting for the drummer to do his thing if he's first.

Cheddatom is totally correct though, there is no reason why kick drum and bass can't live together, and loudly. My issue I was talking about was these huge rigs where the thump of the kick was whacking you in the chest and making you nauseous, and it was detracting from the rest of the sound.
[/quote]

Interesting points.

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[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1424186313' post='2693589']
Honestly, I've seen this at loads of gigs. The kick drum is very scooped, leaving plenty of room for bass guitar, but for whatever reason, you still can't hear the bass guitar.
[/quote]

Metal bass players still(not all but a fair few) keep scooping the mids out, so there is not a great deal to fill that gap and there tone just disappears with the drums and guitars.

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[quote name='VTypeV4' timestamp='1424261084' post='2694442']
Im not biting this time.. :D
[/quote]

Hah, as in the other thread, obviously there are exceptions. Whenever I see a gig and you're doing the sound, the bass is nice and fat. However, if you go to a few rock gigs in the "city center" (naming no names) you'll see what we're on about.

Having said that, it seems to me that a lot of these modern heavy bands are scooping the bass on their recordings too, so when the bass is on it's own, it's a fairly good sound with loads of low end and some distortion on top, but then when the guitars kick in, you can't hear the bass at all. It seems really weird, but this is the sound they like, so I guess some of the sound guys are copying that studio sound for the live shows

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[quote name='Huge Hands' timestamp='1424188740' post='2693627']
Probably because like any trade or skill, you learn from watching others and this is how it is usually done. As drums are often the most acoustic instrument on stage, it does make sense to get them under control first and then add things to them, but as with any artistic endeavour, I don't believe that there should be any rules on this, and if you (as in the engineer) want to start by checking the organists pedal board, then do it and stand by your sound.
[/quote]

Surely the vocals are the most acoustic instrument on the stage and also normally the quietest but also the most important from an audience PoV. Therefore it makes total sense to get them sounding good and mix the rest of the band around that.

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[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1424261461' post='2694447']
Hah, as in the other thread, obviously there are exceptions. Whenever I see a gig and you're doing the sound, the bass is nice and fat. However, if you go to a few rock gigs in the "city center" (naming no names) you'll see what we're on about.

Having said that, it seems to me that a lot of these modern heavy bands are scooping the bass on their recordings too, so when the bass is on it's own, it's a fairly good sound with loads of low end and some distortion on top, but then when the guitars kick in, you can't hear the bass at all. It seems really weird, but this is the sound they like, so I guess some of the sound guys are copying that studio sound for the live shows
[/quote]

Thanks Tom.. :D

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[quote][b]victor5string, on 18 February 2015 - 10:18 AM, said:[/b]
Metal bass players still(not all but a fair few) keep scooping the mids out, so there is not a great deal to fill that gap and there tone just disappears with the drums and guitars. [/quote]

This is definitely a contributing factor, I wasn't guilty of that when I was in a metal band, but it does do my head in that so many metal bassits scoop their mids so much.

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