Barefaced Retro Two10 first thoughts

[Jenny_Innie]

So, I got this Barefaced Retro Two10 for Christmas. I already had a loaner Compact Generation 2, going spare from my Dad’s bass player. I like the Compact. It has a great rumbly sound, but I’ve had a bit of trouble with it in a live situation. Great by itself, but when the guitar, drums and keys come in, I couldn’t get on with it. No matter how much I tweaked my TC RH450, I couldn’t get enough definition. I tried Ashdown and Ampeg heads and got different versions of the same thing. Everyone out front and in the band said the Compact sounded great, but I couldn’t hear some of the notes I was playing.

What was I expecting from a 1x15 cab with no tweeter I suppose?

So, courtesy of Moneybags, sorry I mean Dad, in comes this new 2x10 (again with no tweeter) from Barefaced. He didn’t tell me how much he paid, but I can see that would have been just short of £500 with postage.

Few things to consider. I play in an all girl punk/pop three piece with guitar, bass and drums. We also have a new keys player too who synths, Hammonds and Wurlitzers it like a good ‘un (in rehearsals now). I play a Precision and a Jazz with a pick. I do need something sort of small and light as I’m too small to carry heavy things and I can’t always get someone to do it. I like to hit it hard when I play and I move about a lot. You can hear my bass.

So that’s the thing. Now down to the cab(s). I have reached a conclusion about these two cabs. The smarter of you will be able to guess the answer without reading on. But here goes.

This is all based on a rehearsal we had in the old village hall on Boxing Day. Big old room, with us at one end. I got there early and tried lots of settings and combinations by myself and then did the same with the band. I was also using a borrowed TC RH750 – which I’m hoping to hold on to for a (long) while.

The Compact is very good. It’s very light and not too bulky. It looks a bit funny though. It’s a bit like a big lump of coal. The handle is in an odd place on the side. I thought it should be on the top. Looks well-built enough, although I don’t think the grill would take too much to dent.

Sound-wise, the Compact is great. Get’s a nice rumble and full sound. Good with a bit of distortion too. I like the teeniest of imperceptible dirt in there and that’s good with this cab. It also handles as much power as I could throw at it without “cab distortion”. It took some over zealous EQ tweaking to get the Compact to struggle with the 750 watts of power. Impressive.

So what’s not to like? Nothing really. Well that is, apart from the lack of definition thing when the band is in full swing. It’s a real issue, as I prefer to forget about my gear and just play. When I have settings and levels and positioning on my mind, I don’t feel as able to perform. A bass player I know said I might want to stand still when I play. Yeah, there are spots on the floor where the sound is better. But, as if? Maybe if it had a tweeter or an extra six inch speaker? I think they do them.

Bottom line is, it’s a good cab, with a lot of things going for it. Love those 15” lows, but needs a bit more bite. You can’t get these 1x15 versions any more. Shame that.

Here’s a link to the product website:

[url="http://barefacedbass.com/product-range/Compact.htm"]http://barefacedbass.com/product-range/Compact.htm[/url]

And then there’s the new Retro Two10.

First thing worth saying. Unlike the Compact, it’s a cute thing. I mean, not well cutesy, but still a looker.

I got the 12 Ohm one (more of that in a minute) with the silver cloth front.

Finish quality is excellent. In what I hear is a break from Barefaced tradition, this one is covered in tolex and not the company’s lump of coal effect thing. The tolex looks a bit better than your average too. I’ve seen too many Marshall etc cabs ripped here and there. Very smooth with no grain effect really. That’s probably good. I’ll still be careful with it though, as you know tolex.

Anyway, I know it’s 3 kg heavier than the Compact, but it doesn’t feel like that. It sort of feels the same weight. In fact, it’s a bit easier to carry as it’s a little bit smaller than the Compact. I do worry carrying a tolex cab about though – especially as RoqSolid don’t do a cover yet. I have sent dimensions to them though.

I plonked it on top of the compact (both on their side) and played it by itself and with the Compact. When A/B’ed with the Compact, I noticed that the Compact has a cleaner sound. The Two10 is almost grainy sounding beside it. Maybe it’s that “old school” sound, whatever that means.

There’s also a funny thing. When using it on its side (as I think it is supposed to be given the orientation of the logo), the TC head didn’t sit on top easily. The handle gets in the way. Again, I think the handle is in the wrong place. Should be on the short side.

One big thing became immediately apparent. The Retro Two10 is nowhere near as loud as the Compact for any given point on the volume dial. In fact, I struggled to get enough volume with the Two10 by itself playing with the band. As I said, I was using my other Christmas present, a TC RH750. Through the Compact, it’s totally deafening at full chat. Through the Two10 – it wasn’t loud enough. It’s a 12 Ohmer isn’t it? Nuff said. The Retro Two10 could handle all of the power of the TC RH750 without any issues – but, as a 12 Ohmer, that was probably only 300 odd watts.

Also, it doesn’t have the lows of the Compact. It had definition, but the sound was a bit thin and wasn’t loud enough.

However, paired with the Compact, it was right on it. Brilliant sound, nuclear explosion loud, a real “slam-dunk”,“hit by a freight train” sound. Ooh, it gave me the shivers.

[url="http://barefacedbass.com/product-range/retro-two10.htm"]http://barefacedbass.com/product-range/retro-two10.htm[/url]

Conclusion

1. The 8 Ohm Compact is really good, but, as a 1x15 with no tweeter, isn’t the answer by itself. Great rumbly lows, but not enough definition.

2. The 12 Ohm Retro Two10 looks good and has a slightly “coloured” grainy sound. Good, although it lacks some lows. But, it’s not loud enough by itself, even with a 750 watt amp. I’m not even sure that having two of them together would be what I need?

I wouldn’t buy one of these, in 12 Ohm guise, as a stand-alone cab.

3. Both cabs together are the bomb. Massively loud, a rumbly bad girl deep sound, with battering-ram lows and every note is very clear. Brill.

It’s the conclusion I was hoping wouldn’t happen I suppose. I am looking for a lightweight one-cab solution, and neither of the Barefaced units is the answer. Paired together, they are amazing. I guess that’s entirely predictable. Although they’re both light, you will need both of them to get that slamdunk sound. But what a sound. It’ll take an extra walk out to the car on gig nights – but could be worth it.

[Lozz196]

That`s a similar sort of tale as to when I had the Barefaced Compact & Midget. Each were good but didn`t do exactly what I wanted on their own, but paired together, well that was something else. I`m sure it would have been even better had I gone for the Midget with the tweeter but stoopidly didn`t.

My thoughts on the Compact were the same, very smooth, would handle lots of power, but I couldn`t get a "bark" from it, it was just velvety smooth all the time. Adding in the Midget solved it, probably as you feel with the Retro Two10.

I`ve found that as a one-cab solution the Barefaced Super 12T is the cab I need - it does the Compact/Midget thing all in one light, easily portable, very loud box (that looks like a big lump of coal, but being old I rather like that). In fact I now have two of them, for gigs when I need a big-rig on stage, so we look like a real band (as punters on the scene I`m in expect big-rigs).

[LukeFRC]

I have no idea how the power management on the tc head is interpreting a 16ohm cab.... probably not a goix match

[Jenny_Innie]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1419891603' post='2643768']
I have no idea how the power management on the tc head is interpreting a 16ohm cab.... probably not a goix match
[/quote]

12 Ohm you mean. I have since had a go with a MiBass 550 too and get the same thing.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Jenny_Innie

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Jenny_Innie' timestamp='1419892161' post='2643785']


12 Ohm you mean. I have since had a go with a MiBass 550 too and get the same thing.
[/quote] whats 4 ohms between friends? :-)
Yeah you would expect them to br the same, are you going to do the crossover thing alex meantions on his website to make it a 4ohm?

[Jenny_Innie]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1419893652' post='2643817']
whats 4 ohms between friends? :-)
Yeah you would expect them to br the same, are you going to do the crossover thing alex meantions on his website to make it a 4ohm?
[/quote]


Hmmm. I wonder if it will give enough lows to be a viable one cab solution. That 4 Ohm thing might also affect its performance when twinned with the Compact. The TC can handle down to 2.66 Ohms according to their website. So the resultant 3 Ohms of the two cabs pared (with Two10 in 4 Ohm guise) would be okay .... but I'm wondering if I should just keep it as it is.

[HazBeen]

- TC E's rating of 450/750 watts are inflated (as many D class manufacturers do), the 450 putts out 236 watts continuous at 4 Ohm and 133 at 8. I do not know what exact 750 figures are but it will be around 475 at 4 and 250 at 8. It will be max 150 at 12 Ohms.

- Barefaced created the 12 Ohm 210 to be part of a modular speaker system not a standalone cab. They offer a 4 ohm version I believe.

- Doubling power only gives you marginal increase in volume, increasing speaker surface area is much more effective.

- Playing with a pick often requires a tweater to get that high end fizzle

So if you want a single cab solution go for the lightest cab with most speaker surface area, a 212 is indeed a good suggestion and get one at 4 ohm with tweater. Volume difference between a 450 vs 750 watt D class head is pretty much negligible with the cabs you have.

[wateroftyne]

Yup - neither of the TC heads are going to give you much wallop into 12ohm.

[FlatEric]

Jenny - Hi.

I now have a more compact rig but still look at other units (as we all do) just in case I have missed something
that may be of use to me.

So I read your review.

I would just like to say how concise and objective it is.
Easy to read and interesting.

Ta.

[Jenny_Innie]

[quote name='HazBeen' timestamp='1419894844' post='2643837']
- TC E's rating of 450/750 watts are inflated (as many D class manufacturers do), the 450 putts out 236 watts continuous at 4 Ohm and 133 at 8. I do not know what exact 750 figures are but it will be around 475 at 4 and 250 at 8. It will be max 150 at 12 Ohms.

- Barefaced created the 12 Ohm 210 to be part of a modular speaker system not a standalone cab. They offer a 4 ohm version I believe.

- Doubling power only gives you marginal increase in volume, increasing speaker surface area is much more effective.

- Playing with a pick often requires a tweater to get that high end fizzle

So if you want a single cab solution go for the lightest cab with most speaker surface area, a 212 is indeed a good suggestion and get one at 4 ohm with tweater. Volume difference between a 450 vs 750 watt D class head is pretty much negligible with the cabs you have.
[/quote]

I disagree with pretty much all of this post. "Playing with a pick requires a tweeter"?????? C'mon!!!!!

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Jenny_Innie' timestamp='1419928728' post='2643958']
I disagree with pretty much all of this post.
[/quote]

The first three are pretty much rooted in hard fact...

[planer]

A lesson in how to write an interesting kit comparison :-)

[chris_b]

Hard facts? Several TC amps generate their volume from 236 watt power modules but, due to how they process the signal, their final "watts" rating is easily an equivalent to other amps in that class.

Yawn. Whether you like the tone or not is the issue with TC amps [i]not[/i] their volume.

Back to Barefaced cabs, Small cabs are usually part of a modular set up which is where they shine. I don't care about extra trips to the car as long as each trip is a sensible weight for my back. None of my Bergantino 112 cabs have sounded as good on their own as they do in a pair, or even 3.

If the Retro and Compact sound that good together I'd happily use them in that combination.

[hubrad]

[quote name='Jenny_Innie' timestamp='1419928728' post='2643958']
I disagree with pretty much all of this post. "Playing with a pick requires a tweeter"?????? C'mon!!!!!
[/quote]
The 'playing with a pick' comment is the only part of HazBeen's post that I would disagree with, but I'm right with you on that, Jenny.
A couple of my cabs have tweeters, but I usually either turn them partly down or even dial them out. Even stripped a few out completely, crossovers and all, over the years. Depends how I want to sound just then. I'd say that on the odd occasion I play with a pick the tweeter would just sound a bit too harsh for my taste. Great for an extra bit of edge with a fretless in a rock band, mind. ;-)
I've been through alot of experimentation over the years, and I definitely prefer the tonality of 10s or 12s rather than 15s standalone. I'd occasionally use a 15 to beef out the bottom end, but 12s are my staple these days. There are some surprisingly light cabs out there.. carry as many as you can be bothered, or end up with something of a selection so you can speaker up differently depending on the gig. Sometimes even a single 10 is more than enough, other times you need lots of cones.
Enjoy!

Edit: Excellent review of your experience with the BF cabs so far, btw. :-)

Edited December 30, 2014 by hubrad

[Adrenochrome]

Did you try the two10 stood vertically at all? I think vertical is recommended for clarity.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1419934968' post='2644023']
Hard facts? Several TC amps generate their volume from 236 watt power modules but, due to how they process the signal, their final "watts" rating is easily an equivalent to other amps in that class.

Yawn. Whether you like the tone or not is the issue with TC amps [i]not[/i] their volume.
[/quote]

The facts re: output are there in black and white. Whether or not you feel they sound louder is a different point.

No need to be condescending.

[chris_b]

If people still wish to imply that TC amps only put out 200 watts, I'll continue to relate my experience of them, that they are easily the equivalent of 500 and 750 watt amps.

The yawn is because the continued misinformation from a few people is getting very boring.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1419937406' post='2644048']
If people still wish to imply that TC amps only put out 200 watts, I'll continue to relate my experience of them, that they are easily the equivalent of 500 and 750 watt amps.

The yawn is because the continued misinformation from a few people is getting very boring.
[/quote]

Aside from the fact I think you're missing the point, I disagree with you. So it's not misinformation - it's an opinion.

[HazBeen]

The good thing about this forum is that everyone can have an opinion, if people disagree with me backed up by facts or just opinion that is more than fine for me.

Re the pick comment I must admit that it doesn't read right (it was late), ie does not convey what I was trying to get across. Of course you do not need a tweeter if you play with a pick. I was trying to address the "audibility" whilst moving around the stage, as higher frequencies have shorter wave lengths you can hear them a little better on stage. The highs a tweeter puts out would I feel help, in ear monitoring would be better .

My comments were not meant to rile you Jenny_Innie, I was trying to give some background to some of the comments you raised in a very good to read review.

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1419931606' post='2643989']


The first three are pretty much rooted in hard fact...
[/quote]

[HazBeen]

Clearly a sore point, if it makes any difference my GB Streamliner says it puts out 900 which it does not. I still love the amp though and it is (like the TC) loud enough to keep up with the loudest drummers and guitar players. EBS have even turned it into (this is opinion again) a reverse marketing trick, labelling their Reidmar at 250 watts (same module in there) so everybody is in awe of how loud they are compared to others.

My old (now sold) 200 watt tube amp was louder than anything I used before or after.

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1419937406' post='2644048']
If people still wish to imply that TC amps only put out 200 watts, I'll continue to relate my experience of them, that they are easily the equivalent of 500 and 750 watt amps.

The yawn is because the continued misinformation from a few people is getting very boring.
[/quote]

[mcnach]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1419937406' post='2644048']
If people still wish to imply that TC amps only put out 200 watts, I'll continue to relate my experience of them, that they are easily the equivalent of 500 and 750 watt amps.

The yawn is because the continued misinformation from a few people is getting very boring.
[/quote]

Misinformation?

It's a fact that the TC amps can output up to 236W.
I used an RH450 for 3 years, I was a very early adopter, I'm very familiar with how they sound.

Equivalent to 500W amps? Depends on teh sound your after entirely. Doubling the power does not give you exactly a huge increase in volume (through the same speakers), so it's not that surprising that if someone is happy with a 500W amp that they never really push, a 236W amp can work pretty well too.
TC are not magicians. They can make a loud amp, that's for sure, but that comes at a price: the price is the energy-rich lows are not as rich as in other amps. It's really cleverly done, and I was happy enough with that for three full years. There's no need to get all upset... it is what it is, the facts are out there. At the end of the day some like it, good, and some don't, good - go buy something else. I did, eventually, and I am happier with my current amps, but the RH450 is not a bad amp, just not for me. The way they process the sound to enhance their loudness gives it a sound that is not what I prefer, when it comes to the bottom end in particular. I wish they offered the choice of defeating (or relaxing) their power management program, as I feel that with the right speakers it could sound much nicer and still loud enough.

Attempting to infer loudness by quoting watts is what leads manufacturers to getting creative with their numbers, but it's not a good way to measure how loud an amp can be, and the sooner the majority of people realise that, the better. Some people end up making a choice between a 600W and a 750W amp going for the "louder" one because it's good to have enough watts under the hood, right? But the volume difference between a 600W and a 750W amp -if the signal processing is the same- is not enough to warrant making a decision based on that.
TC knows it, and chose to lie quoting 450W for their RH450... and they probably sold more amps than they had if they had explained their approach and stated it was a 236W amp. That is a shame, because if your main goal is loudness, the RH450 can do loud, no question. The wattage is not that relevant. The sound is.

I'm very disappointed that TC Electronic, a very innovative and clever company, treated their customers as if they were fools who could not handle the truth. There was no need to lie. THAT was misinformation.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1419945179' post='2644156']

Misinformation?

It's a fact that the TC amps can output up to 236W.
I used an RH450 for 3 years, I was a very early adopter, I'm very familiar with how they sound.

Equivalent to 500W amps? Depends on teh sound your after entirely. Doubling the power does not give you exactly a huge increase in volume (through the same speakers), so it's not that surprising that if someone is happy with a 500W amp that they never really push, a 236W amp can work pretty well too.
TC are not magicians. They can make a loud amp, that's for sure, but that comes at a price: the price is the energy-rich lows are not as rich as in other amps. It's really cleverly done, and I was happy enough with that for three full years. There's no need to get all upset... it is what it is, the facts are out there. At the end of the day some like it, good, and some don't, good - go buy something else. I did, eventually, and I am happier with my current amps, but the RH450 is not a bad amp, just not for me. The way they process the sound to enhance their loudness gives it a sound that is not what I prefer, when it comes to the bottom end in particular. I wish they offered the choice of defeating (or relaxing) their power management program, as I feel that with the right speakers it could sound much nicer and still loud enough.

Attempting to infer loudness by quoting watts is what leads manufacturers to getting creative with their numbers, but it's not a good way to measure how loud an amp can be, and the sooner the majority of people realise that, the better. Some people end up making a choice between a 600W and a 750W amp going for the "louder" one because it's good to have enough watts under the hood, right? But the volume difference between a 600W and a 750W amp -if the signal processing is the same- is not enough to warrant making a decision based on that.
TC knows it, and chose to lie quoting 450W for their RH450... and they probably sold more amps than they had if they had explained their approach and stated it was a 236W amp. That is a shame, because if your main goal is loudness, the RH450 can do loud, no question. The wattage is not that relevant. The sound is.

I'm very disappointed that TC Electronic, a very innovative and clever company, treated their customers as if they were fools who could not handle the truth. There was no need to lie. THAT was misinformation.
[/quote]

Absolutely. Hats off to EBS for doing it right.

[No lust in Jazz]

Well, for me there are a lot of conclusions drawn from one rehearsal; new cabs and borrowed amp for me would require a considerable bit of trial and error - but that's just me.

In my experience, I have a similar issue(s) with a single 15" - keys washing out the 'presence' of the bass and I'm looking for a 2x12 (probably) for a more one cab fits all solution.

Good luck with your quest (opens Crisps)

[Jenny_Innie]

I get the idea that the 12 Ohm version is intended as a modular thing. I obviously didn't order it, so didn't make that choice. In fact, he who did, says he figured I'd use it with the Compact. I'm just saying that the RH450 and especially the RH750 will blow the roof off the shack at full chat through the Compact (and the same with the MiBass 550 I used later) - while through the Two10, they were not loud enough to compete with a drummer and guitarist. If you're using one of these as a one-cab solution, I'd go for the 4 Ohm version. I guess that's how they were intended.

I'm not sure what to make of all of the mumbo jumbo about watts. Here's my thinking. The RH450 (whatever wattage it is) is crazy loud through a Compact. The couple of times I have used it live, I couldn't get the dial past halfway without complaints from the drummer and guitarists that I was too loud. Our drummer (also Jenny) is like the muppet drummer too. She has one level - ear shattering, which is both annoying and good at the same time. The RH750, noticeably more so. If you need more than one of either of them in a pub or club gig - then you need a hearing test.

The only issue I have now is the look of the two cabs together. I might go looking for a Compact with a silver cloth front (assuming the new Retro Two10 cloth is the same as the Compact).

[Jenny_Innie]

[quote name='No lust in Jazz' timestamp='1419946999' post='2644184']
Well, for me there are a lot of conclusions drawn from one rehearsal;
[/quote]

The clue is in the title of the post.