White Cloud Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 [quote name='Japhet' timestamp='1416133108' post='2607098'] My take on it has always been I play for nothing because I love it. I get paid to lug the gear around. Seems to work for me. [/quote] An excellent mindset! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monckyman Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 I love playing music, but I loathe somebody making money out of that without factoring me in. Nobody sells hundreds of pints of beer to a crowd watching someone scuba dive. The pay for pub gigs has remained stagnant for a decade and is a scandal. Having said that, you all know this before you do it, so if you want more cash, do the wedding/party thing (and there's nothing wrong with that), or if you do it as a hobby/love of it then stop weeping and get on with it. You will never justify the cost in equipment, time, domestic stress etc anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingBollock Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 I haven't gigged in over twenty years and never got paid when I did. Being paid never even occurred to me, it was just supposed to be for fun, and it was. I believe that if you throw money into a mix of people doing anything, it changes the dynamic, most often for the worst. But if I was having to do gigs that weren't any fun I'd want something for it. When fishing I have always said that if the weather is nice and the lake or river is a pleasant place to be, I wouldn't be bothered if i stayed all day and didn't catch a thing. But if it's pissing it down or snowing and I'm sat next to a cold, muddy hole in the ground, I won't be happy if I'm not catching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damonjames Posted November 16, 2014 Author Share Posted November 16, 2014 [quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1416166105' post='2607545'] I love playing music, but I loathe somebody making money out of that without factoring me in. Nobody sells hundreds of pints of beer to a crowd watching someone scuba dive. The pay for pub gigs has remained stagnant for a decade and is a scandal. Having said that, you all know this before you do it, so if you want more cash, do the wedding/party thing (and there's nothing wrong with that), or if you do it as a hobby/love of it then stop weeping and get on with it. You will never justify the cost in equipment, time, domestic stress etc anyway. [/quote] This is my point, pubs sell more booze when bands play, FACT. I'm not expecting to get function type pay for pubs gigs, as the publican can never guarantee the attendance in advance so it's unreasonable for them to carry that sort of risk. But to offer a band £150 for a second visit is a bit rich, we got caught out as we assumed it was the same as our first rims which was £200. On a 1:1 justification, you will always loose out in the music business unless you can get a major record deal doing original work, even then it's not a certainty as the world is full of exploited "signed" artists who end up broke. I'm not naieive enough to think otherwise, but I'm just miffed about last night. Probably made worse by the fact I've had about 8 hours sleep in the last two days courtesy of the kids and a dog that can't make it through the night with have ing to go outside! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norris Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 I've played in a trio for years mainly due to the economics. I have a day job but the guitarist doesn't. He plays with other bands to make the core of his money. However we have a general rule that the pub needs to pay a reasonable amount or we don't take the gig. Places that we really enjoy playing we might do for slightly less, but usually it's got to be at least £70 a man - and an even split Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leschirons Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 [quote name='Damonjames' timestamp='1416167843' post='2607575'] But to offer a band £150 for a second visit is a bit rich, we got caught out as we assumed it was the same as our first rims which was £200. [/quote] The onus is on you (the band) to confirm money before the actual gig if you want to avoid any nasty surprises but I find it weird that after paying you £200 for a first gig, you'd think the offer of a second date meant that they'd previously been happy with your performance and their takings As for your original question, if you ask yourselves why you actually gig, your answer will tell you if you should bother or not. I have plenty of friends who will drive 50 kms to play 3 hours for nothing and others who won't take the covers of their rig for less than 250€ per man. They're all happy because they all play for different reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 (edited) [quote name='rogerstodge' timestamp='1416135101' post='2607136'] Used to be the same for us until we said " from now on we want £400 per show or we don't do it". We still do approx 90 gigs per year. [/quote] Amen! Our fee is $500.00 and that's a bargain. We don't discount or make deals with venues. It comes down to this, some venues can't afford us and that's where it ends.With our sound and lights in actuality it probably cost closer to 700.00 to put the band on stage. Now, we have been together for 8 years so as an established band we might have more leverage than others. I have read a lot about love of playing vs money, I say; [i]"I love performing and I also love getting paid for something I have invested a lot of time and money in".[/i] Thing is for some, that "I[i]'m in this for the love of music not money, "I don't care if I get paid because I have a traditional job that pays well."[/i] Ok, I get that. But for some it really means; we haven't figured out how to get paid, sounds to hard, so we play for the love of music. For the OP, I would suggest figuring out how to up your fee. Always keep your eye on that bar. If there is a good crowd and their turning over a lot of premium alcohol over the course of the evening you deserve, no not [b]deserve[/b], your [b]worth[/b] much more than more than £150. I might ad that a 5 way split is tough, any way you can get it down to 4. You know, we would love to ad keys to our band, however we simply can't afford it. The venues are not going to pay for another man. Blue Edited November 16, 2014 by blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 [quote name='chrismuzz' timestamp='1416163468' post='2607503'] I got alright money doing covers, but I'm much happier doing originals for nothing [/quote] Exact opposite for me, made nothing in originals bands. Lot's of rehearsals and dreams but no money. I switched to covers about 4 years ago and I will never look back. I'm much happier doing covers for money. You know, for those of you on the fence with this, you can still have a lot of fun when your getting paid. There is nothing wrong with playing for free. It's like someone said earlier we all play for different reasons. I play for; [list] [*]The attention [*]The fun [*]The money [/list] Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 [quote name='bubinga5' timestamp='1416139296' post='2607207'] if you have a full time job, and can pay the bills, why not do it for the love of music and playing. ? depending on your circumstances of course. sounds very frustrating for you though Damon.. Keep your chin up dude.. [/quote] Well, that sounds fine, but there's another piece to your analysis. Playing for free because you love playing is one thing but ad to it that some venues are using you and taking advantage of your love. For those who say, I'll play for free because I love it, i have a question; Do you also love being taken advantage of? Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierreganseman Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 As a full time pro player I feel The band should not accept £150 to start with. This is the main reason the business is as bad as it is as it just brings the whole market way down. On the other hand if you'd said no , the place would probably have found some one ready to play for £100 or even for free ... A beer and a kebab. So its a loose loose for many people. Just my personal thoughts, not intending towards anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damonjames Posted November 16, 2014 Author Share Posted November 16, 2014 [quote name='chrismuzz' timestamp='1416163468' post='2607503'] I got alright money doing covers, but I'm much happier doing originals for nothing [/quote] This I agree with. You expect to have to push your own music for free until it get some support, playing covers, whilst fun, is strictly to entertain others and therefore is no longer a charitable venture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damonjames Posted November 16, 2014 Author Share Posted November 16, 2014 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1416171000' post='2607628'] Well, that sounds fine, but there's another piece to your analysis. Playing for free because you love playing is one thing but ad to it that some venues are using you and taking advantage of your love. For those who say, I'll play for free because I love it, i have a question; Do you also love being taken advantage of? Blue [/quote] I should state that I have no problem playing for free, my band has done several charit gigs, and will no doubt do more for worthy causes. But as far as in concerned 50-100£ more out of the till for the pub won't break the bank, but it makes a if difference to the takings of the band. It also then puts some responsibility on the venue to promote the event to ensure a good turnout. We promote the hell out if out gigs via Facebook with a 7 day countdown with a new photo for a previous gigs to try and get as many punters in as possible. But we have done a coupe of door price gigs and come away with less than we got last night! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Playing currently makes up a fair chunk of my somewhat sparse income. Some time ago I had a long hard think about gig types and pay and came to the following conclusions. Playing weddings and functions is the money earner and there's generally plenty of notice in advance. Already doing that. That left me sat on my arse doing nothing in the evenings where I wasn't playing. Rather than doing that I joined a pub playing rock covers band to fill those diary spaces. Not great money, but more than I'd get sat at home when not working with the function band. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidder652003 Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Ive noticed that where you live in the Uk also determines how much some pubs are willing to pay. Having said that we were asking £70 per man and feeling a bit cheeky ( theres 3 of us) when often the pubs were quiet. Now we use an agent, we are getting over £100 per man, simply because the agent has the b*lls to ask for that much from her bands. £150 is IMO taking the p*ss, but some pubs will only pay that much and get the bands to do it for that. I would avoid any pub paying less than £240 in the present climate and always ask for at least £300 for a 4 piece. You are worth it, just don't be afraid to ask for it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1416171000' post='2607628'] Well, that sounds fine, but there's another piece to your analysis. Playing for free because you love playing is one thing but ad to it that some venues are using you and taking advantage of your love. For those who say, I'll play for free because I love it, i have a question; Do you also love being taken advantage of? [/quote] Again, it's a matter of perspective. You won't play without being paid (fair enough) so will have a tendency to see people playing for free being taken advantage of by the pubs and bars where they play. However, because I play for enjoyment, I need somewhere to gig . . . so perhaps I'm the one taking advantage of a venue that will let me play there? In the UK, the pub business is dying on its feet (not because of music) and pubs are closing down at an alarming rate. If I'm happy to play for free and can tempt a few people into a local pub to listen to some live music instead of sitting at home drinking their supermarket beer while watching TV and the pub makes a bit more money as a result and can therefore remain in business, then I suggest that could be a win, win, win situation - I get to indulge my hobby, people get to hear live music in a social setting and the pub gets to stay in business. The alternative is that the pub goes bust and everyone loses. Of course, this doesn't apply to all pubs or to all bands, so happily there is room for all. But what's interesting about these regular discussions is that it's the bands trying to get paid that are the ones always moaning. The bands playing for the pure love of the music and the performance seem to be pretty chilled. So how are the 'pro' bands going to persuade the hobby bands to change their ways and take on all the apparent angst and aggravation of gigging for money? I don't think they can because they are inhabiting different worlds - not better or worse, just different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepbass5 Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Town pubs make a lot of money we are not talking country local pubs with just three punters on bars stools and a dog in the corner, If i was playing pubs I would be getting in touch with the other bands in Town and work together to raise the fee. You have to set £50 / man as a minimum to cover expences even if you treat it as a subsidised hobby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monckyman Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 "Travelled down,to London Town. In a van,pissing down. A fiver each,the gig was a peach, but don't ever work for free." Mark Riley and the Creepers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 I've got one this saturday £90 between 3 of us The pub in question isnt going to book and pay a £500+ band if we dont do it, I wouldn't do it with my 4 piece function band and I will be using a minimal kit, its a tiny pub full of mates and will mainly be for a laugh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 (edited) [quote name='deepbass5' timestamp='1416172916' post='2607658'] Town pubs make a lot of money we are not talking country local pubs with just three punters on bars stools and a dog in the corner, If i was playing pubs I would be getting in touch with the other bands in Town and work together to raise the fee. You have to set £50 / man as a minimum to cover expences even if you treat it as a subsidised hobby. [/quote] I appreciate some people might want to but they don't HAVE to! I take your point - my musical hobby costs me money, I get that, but so do my other hobbies but no one subsidises them, so what makes music so different? I played a 50 minute mixed set of covers and originals today to about 60/70 people, together with 3 other bands. Admission was free, the bands were not paid, everyone had fun, it was 4 miles from home. That'll do me for this month. I'm happy. Edit: I was standing exactly where I saw Norman Watt-Roy play a blinder of a gig with the Blockheads two days ago. I'm guessing he got paid, but then he is a bit better than me . . . Edited November 16, 2014 by flyfisher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 [b] [size=4]Why do we bother?[/size][/b] Because we love what we do and we are fortunate to be able to do it, unlike many people who just wish they could. We have good gigs, we have bad gigs, we make money, we lose money - who cares! If you don't love what you do - get out.... life's too short. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1416172793' post='2607656'] Again, it's a matter of perspective. You won't play without being paid (fair enough) so will have a tendency to see people playing for free being taken advantage of by the pubs and bars where they play. However, because I play for enjoyment, I need somewhere to gig . . . so perhaps I'm the one taking advantage of a venue that will let me play there? In the UK, the pub business is dying on its feet (not because of music) and pubs are closing down at an alarming rate. If I'm happy to play for free and can tempt a few people into a local pub to listen to some live music instead of sitting at home drinking their supermarket beer while watching TV and the pub makes a bit more money as a result and can therefore remain in business, then I suggest that could be a win, win, win situation - I get to indulge my hobby, people get to hear live music in a social setting and the pub gets to stay in business. The alternative is that the pub goes bust and everyone loses.[/quote] Good point, however I still don't understand how your taking advantage of the venue if your contributing to the sale of alcohol. The owner goes home with a pocket full of cash and you go home with a pocket full of love. Hmmmm ? maybe it is a win for you. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin8708 Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Pub gigs down here pay £90 to £150 depending on venue , we all know this , so there is no point moaning about it . Our band is just not good enough to get the big event gigs , so we're happy with just small pub gigs . As a non pro bass player , the chance to turn up the amps and rock out , and get £30 for the privilege seems like a fair deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Feel for you Damon, that was a long way to go for that money. What did you say to the guy when he came over with 50 quid less than last time ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FretNoMore Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 (edited) If you do it for the money then you have my sympathy, it seems a bad time for working musicians these days, Personally it has always been a hobby for me, and a big money sink. We do get paid when we play, I like to think it's a principle for us not to dump the market, but the pay generally is gas money or maybe enough for a good set of strings at best. As long as it's fun I don't mind, compared to the money I've spent on gear it's irrelevant, but it's of course a real luxury position because I have a better paying day job that finances the music. Even so, it is annoying to see what the average bar owner thinks of bands and how much they should be paid. Edited November 16, 2014 by FretNoMore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_5 Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 My local pays £150 per act. Be that a single singer/songwriter or a 6 piece band. I spokes to the landlord about the possibility of my band playing and he said "I've always paid £150 to bands, and I always will. It's not negotiable". So I left it. My bandmates are spread around a 250 mile radius - that wouldn't even cover their fuel these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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