PaulWarning Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1391171864' post='2354046'] Usually, what sounds good at home or in solo practice, sounds poor in a band context. Too much bass muddies up the mix, but too little makes the band sound weak (if you are playing on backline only) [/quote] ^ this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 "mids" to me is far too vague a term. Quite often we see "noooo, don't cut your mids" but without specifying a frequency or smaller frequency range than just "mids" it's a pointless remark. You mentioned listening back to some recordings... what was wrong? Not enough bass? Or just low end rumble and nothing "cutting"? Or you just couldn't hear the bass? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1391174803' post='2354114'] "mids" to me is far too vague a term. Quite often we see "noooo, don't cut your mids" but without specifying a frequency or smaller frequency range than just "mids" it's a pointless remark. [/quote] As I said earlier round about 400hz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1391171864' post='2354046'] Every band is different. As bass player you should really try to fit into a certain frequency range that either complements or contrasts with the other instruments. Of course, the frequency range available will depend on the type of instruments in your band and subtle things like how the drummer tunes his/her kit, the sound that the guitarist(s) favour(s), whether you have a keyboard player with a wandering left hand, etc. You can only really find your frequency "pocket" by playing together with your band. The "pocket" will also vary from room to room and even little things like changing strings can have an effect! From my point of view (shared by many) I like my bass tone to "fit" with or into the overall band sound. There is no point turning up and insisting that "this is my sound, this is what I have always used" when you sonically disappear into the drum kit and the keyboards or rhythm guitar! If you want to be heard, and want to complement the band - you may have to change your sound quite radically. Usually, what sounds good at home or in solo practice, sounds poor in a band context. Too much bass muddies up the mix, but too little makes the band sound weak (if you are playing on backline only - through a decent PA you will get all your bass end through the FOH speakers anyway). Despite what others have said, mids are your friend here. They can give definition and the [b][i]impression of[/i][/b] volume without actually having to turn up. Bass amps do not handle bass frequencies very efficiently, so unless you have a massive amp and lots of speakers you will not hear much low end anyway. Choose your mid frequencies carefully though, as they can sound harsh, scratchy, shouty or nasal (aren't there some great words for describing sounds! ). Get it right though, and you should be clearly audible and able to add to the overall mix In reality, only trial and error will help you find the frequency pocket that works for you and your band. [/quote] ^this, a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 [quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1391175441' post='2354139'] As I said earlier round about 400hz [/quote] Indeed you did, which is much more useful than just saying "mids" Without knowing the actual problem we have no way of knowing which frequency is lacking and/or overpowering. OP - when you play live, do you give the soundman a DI pre or post EQ? Some amp+cab setups will accentuate or attenuate specific frequencies, so you end up tailoring your EQ to the rig. If the rig has a very different response to the soundman's PA rig, and you send the soundman a post EQ signal, it may be near impossible for him to "fix" it to suit his rig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoRhino Posted January 31, 2014 Author Share Posted January 31, 2014 [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1391176665' post='2354163'] Indeed you did, which is much more useful than just saying "mids" Without knowing the actual problem we have no way of knowing which frequency is lacking and/or overpowering. OP - when you play live, do you give the soundman a DI pre or post EQ? Some amp+cab setups will accentuate or attenuate specific frequencies, so you end up tailoring your EQ to the rig. If the rig has a very different response to the soundman's PA rig, and you send the soundman a post EQ signal, it may be near impossible for him to "fix" it to suit his rig. [/quote] Pre-EQ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 [quote name='NoRhino' timestamp='1391178709' post='2354208'] Pre-EQ [/quote] OK, so the soundman should be able to get a decent sound if all he gets is the sound straight from your bass When you listened back to recordings, what was missing? Low end? High end? Volume all round? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) [quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1391174803' post='2354114'] "mids" to me is far too vague a term. Quite often we see "noooo, don't cut your mids" but without specifying a frequency or smaller frequency range than just "mids" it's a pointless remark.[/quote] No it isn't. Many amps (mine included) only have three "tone" controls - bass, mid/middle/midrange, and treble. In that scenario, advising someone to cut or boost the mids is entirely appropriate. Suggesting he "cut 400Hz" would be a pointless remark. Also, advising a cut or boost at, say, 400Hz might work wonderfully in one particular room, or with one particular bass - but change basses or move rooms and it could introduce all kinds of horrible noises! EQ is a very dynamic thing, needing constant tweaking. There is no "one size fits all" solution unless you always play in the same room, with the same gear, to the same number of people... Of course, if they have a more complex EQ section, parametic or graphic - then the term "mids" is rather general and therefore almost meaningless. Edited January 31, 2014 by Conan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1391113420' post='2353514'] Don't get carried away with mids as you'll find most people who talk about them as some sort of holy grail can't play with that sort of sound or indeed even use it themseles...possibly, unknowingly.. Most will suggest you use some sort of mid to cut through when really the problem lies elsewhere in the band mix. They may even suggest you do this...and sacrifice your type of sound for the good of the band. [/quote] Interesting. You are obviously an experienced player, and yet your advice goes against that of nearly everybody else. Also, how many of us actually have our own "sound"? Our own [b][i]style[/i][/b], yes. But [i]sound[/i]? That changes depending on the bass you play, the state of the strings, the shape, size and type of room, how tired you are and a million and one other factors (without even mentioning amps, soundmen or PA!!). I suggested that the OP use "some sort of mid to cut through". I also suggested that "sacrificing his type of sound for the good of the band" might be worth a try. Of course, as with many other things, if your band mates are ignorant, self-obsessed megalomaniacs you may get nowhere with this strategy - but the OP suggests that this is not the case. Edited January 31, 2014 by Conan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1391181296' post='2354264'] No it isn't. Many amps (mine included) only have three "tone" controls - bass, mid/middle/midrange, and treble. In that scenario, advising someone to cut or boost the mids is entirely appropriate. [/quote] Well, no, because for every amp the mid control will be for a different frequency and with a different curve. Fair enough if you're actually aware of the amp's tone controls, and you know what the OP is lacking in terms of frequency response from his rig. I've yet to be able to find out what the OP is missing, or even if he has too much of a certain frequency range. [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1391181296' post='2354264'] ... EQ is a very dynamic thing, needing constant tweaking. There is no "one size fits all" solution... [/quote] Yes, you're right, but most venues with a decent PA will have that PA set up to sound good in that particular room. I would say the best advice is to get a sound that sounds good with the rest of the band on stage, and leave the rest to the sound man Could it be the case that the recordings OP has heard have been at gigs with a sh*t mix? The sh*t mix could be down to guitarists, or to the sound man, but I doubt it has much to do with the bass tone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 As with most things in life, it's just best to fiddle with your knobs until you get a satisfactory outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahpook Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 [quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1391198881' post='2354600'] As with most things in life, it's just best to fiddle with your knobs until you get a satisfactory outcome. [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1391182029' post='2354275'] Interesting. You are obviously an experienced player, and yet your advice goes against that of nearly everybody else. Also, how many of us actually have our own "sound"? Our own [b][i]style[/i][/b], yes. But [i]sound[/i]? That changes depending on the bass you play, the state of the strings, the shape, size and type of room, how tired you are and a million and one other factors (without even mentioning amps, soundmen or PA!!). I suggested that the OP use "some sort of mid to cut through". I also suggested that "sacrificing his type of sound for the good of the band" might be worth a try. Of course, as with many other things, if your band mates are ignorant, self-obsessed megalomaniacs you may get nowhere with this strategy - but the OP suggests that this is not the case. [/quote] I'd be interested to hear the sounds some people think they play with... and put that against the advice they post to see if they actually know what they are talking about. A lot of players will use a scoop of some sort as it is an easy sound to typically play with. Also, if you are mixing with other instruments you do not want a full on sound that obliterates others... as you end up with a wall of sound and leave little room for anyone else... This will be a mess.................. This is why people have to be very careful when taking about 'mids'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1391213060' post='2354739'] I'd be interested to hear the sounds some people think they play with... [/quote] I'm not sure what you mean. Are you suggesting that some of us don't actually [b][i]know[/i][/b] what sound we play with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambient Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Getting a bass to record via any sort of built in mic is probably gonna be pretty hard to do. Bass sound waves are pretty big things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 (edited) For recording video, you're better setting up some mics & recording the audio separate or better still, plug all into a desk & mic the drums up. Then put them together with some AV software. Edited because the spellchecker thinks "mics" should be "mice". Sick computer! Edited February 2, 2014 by xgsjx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoRhino Posted February 2, 2014 Author Share Posted February 2, 2014 OP here. I spent time at home trying some of the advice you've all given and have settled on a setting that's different to my usual but sounds like it might do the trick. I'll try it at volume in the studio this week before the gig next Saturday. Decided to use the Zoom purely as a tuner and bring a specific effect in for one song in the set. Have made notes for the soundman too. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oggiesnr Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Good luck. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzyvee Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 [quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1391088134' post='2353081'] if you haven't got wireless get a long lead and stand as far away from you combo as you can, it can sound totally different 20 feet away, if you want more bass don't turn up the bass conrol it could just get boomy and have no definition, boost the mids at about 400hz if you can [/quote] Something I read from Scott Henderson that I want to try myself when I get round to it. According to his web site "[font=Arial][size=4]The Boss RC-2 Loop Station is not connected. Scott hooks it up in place of the wah during soundcheck to check his tone in the PA and for general fun."[/size][/font] [font=Arial][size=4]Jazzyvee[/size][/font] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
essexbasscat Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 What sound for what kind of music ? Motown aka Jameson ? 80's ? Disco ? Classic rock ? Could be different answers for all of them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepbass5 Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Best thing to remember - Tone is volume - and to get the tone you want means altering the volume of specific frequencies. The realisation that, this selected attenuation will change everywhere you go should help prolong a life GAS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoRhino Posted February 13, 2014 Author Share Posted February 13, 2014 Thought I'd give an update and close this topic. Thanks to everyone who participated. Saturday's show was very good with a couple of hundred people making plenty of noise. The stage was hollow. I gave the sound man a pre EQ signal. My amp settings were Gain 4 / Bass 7 / Mid 4 with a 2 KHz boost / Treble 7 I was told that the bass sounded good from the audience and could be felt in the chest. So that's a good sign. Onstage sound and vol was good too. Next show is a smaller venue with a different PA that we'll mix ourselves but I'll be sure to use my new knowledge. Bye for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1391285602' post='2355462'] I'm not sure what you mean. Are you suggesting that some of us don't actually [b][i]know[/i][/b] what sound we play with? [/quote] yep...pretty much, and don't know how to get it or what they want to do with it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1392365857' post='2367758'] yep...pretty much, and don't know how to get it or what they want to do with it [/quote] I'm intrigued. What do you mean, and how do you come to that conclusion? I like to think that I know how to set up my gear and get a decent tone from it. Are you suggesting that I (and others) don't? Edited February 14, 2014 by Conan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjohn Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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