Encourage learners, or 'Tell it like it is'..?

[Dad3353]

Good afternoon, all...

We all have our own way to reply when we see help being asked by beginners. I would assume that all beginners would have their own reactions to the help proffered.
What, in your opinion or experience, is a good method..? Should one cajole and flatter (Come on lad, I'm sure you can make it...), or instead take a more robust attitude (Blisters..? You call them blisters..? Nah..!..)..?
No fighting, please, but contradictory insight welcome...

[chris_b]

The only thing to remember with beginners is don't get technical.

Some of the posts beginners have to wade through on here make me laugh!

[Lozz196]

I think if pointing out area on which people are deficient, it`s helpful to actually point out the areas on which they are good.

Good riffing but try and keep your timing under control, for example.

[ead]

Teenagers asking for help - whatever next, whole sentences?

[chris_b]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1366110587' post='2048348']
....I think if pointing out area on which people are deficient, it`s helpful to actually point out the areas on which they are good....
[/quote]

Good point. Always be positive.

[Zenitram]

Great post chris_b; short, concise and neatly expressed.

[seashell]

Cajoling and flattery worked for me!

My teacher is always really encouraging and has never 'told me off'. He's always saying 'well done', and if I do anything he really likes, he shakes me by the hand. Lovely guy.

Likewise, any advice I've had here has always been very kindly put. Although I have to admit I haven't asked all that many newbie questions. I usually wait until some other brave soul asks and then read the responses.

I am such a girlie wimp!

[timmo]

Cajoling and encouragement is always good, buit also some "telll it like it is" can be just as helpful. Depends on the context and the way it is written.Most disagreements can be down to the written word, by people not expressing themselves correctly, or people reading it in a way the OP never intended. So yes, i think both ways can be valuable.

[JTUK]

Depends how I read it, depends how I tell it.

but there are pretty banal questions at times that I think if you can't work it out, you'll never get on with it anyway.

[xilddx]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1366117915' post='2048513']
Depends how I read it, depends how I tell it.

[b]but there are pretty banal questions at times that I think if you can't work it out, you'll never get on with it anyway.[/b]
[/quote]
Really? It depends who's doing the explaining. I know people who did crap at school in a subject they ended up geting a degree in. It's usually down to the tutor. Motivation to learn can be quickly killed by a poor tutor.

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited February 16, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[Dad3353]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1366118623' post='2048524']...Motivation to learn can be quickly killed by a poor tutor.[/quote]

i think the opposite is also true, that a good tutor can be 'ground down' by a poorly-motivated student. To me, this is the starting point. If the student does not have the initial 'spark' and will to learn , there is little any tutor can do. The only remedy, in this admittedly extreme example, is to firstly 'light the flame', and get the student 'on board'. Then one may start...

Edited April 16, 2013 by Dad3353

[JTUK]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1366118623' post='2048524']
Really? It depends who's doing the explaining. I know people who did crap at school in a subject they ended up geting a degree in. It's usually down to the tutor. Motivation to learn can be quickly killed by a poor tutor.
[/quote]

Nice try N, but you can just tell that music is going to be hard work with some.
It is not like objective subjects.... it is far more involved than that..as you know, of course.
If you have to be spoon-fed every inch of the way, whenever is that person going to
be ok left to their own devices. Ok, I learnt pre online..by some way...
but you pick things up or you don't...
That is fine, just don't expect me to get involved.

And no, I don't teach anymore...

[JamesBass]

The old sh*t sandwich works best in my experience, start off with something good, then give them something negative but in a constructive manner, then end on another high. It's never good to be rude or negative towards beginners because at one stage we were like that and at least they've asked for some help and some direction, that's the only way to learn! Think of giving advice as a compliment to yourself, the way you come across to a beginner shows them just how good of a bass player you are with respects to teaching, there's no harm in being out played eventually by someone if that someone has worked hard and has the skills and knowledge to back it up.

[Dad3353]

As to the general subject, ie: how to reply to questions, I am of the opinion that a mix of several approaches is not necessarily a bad thing. For my part, I have a natural (and honed...) leaning towards healthy sarcasm and derision, but I fully realise that this is not always approriate. I would, however, maintain that a modicum of 'shock tactics' can jolt a dolt into 'thinking' mode, where a smooth sentence could be simply 'in one ear and out of the other'. I have been involved, on and off, over the past 40 years or so, in instilling some elements of IT knowledge into a wide range of 'students' or colleagues, ranging from school kids, through teachers, to fellow workers and management teams. I have modestly good results wilth a mixture of 'laying the foundations first', getting the folks on side, and the base-ball bat technique. Skilful use of these, and other pedagogic tools have to be juggled, often on a daily basis, to cater for the whims and moods of each (myself included..!), and there are no hard and fast rules which apply in al situations. Encouragement..? Yes. Patience..? Bucketfuls. Clip round the ear..? Sometimes, if it helps. It's all good, imho and ime.

[xilddx]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1366119500' post='2048539']
Nice try N, but you can just tell that music is going to be hard work with some.
It is not like objective subjects.... it is far more involved than that..as you know, of course.
If you have to be spoon-fed every inch of the way, whenever is that person going to
be ok left to their own devices. Ok, I learnt pre online..by some way...
but you pick things up or you don't...
That is fine, just don't expect me to get involved.

And no, I don't teach anymore...
[/quote]
That's fair comment mate

One must have a degree of passion before embarking on the journey.

[Conan]

The internet is a fantastic resource and has almost endless uses... but it can also make people lazy.

Do the research first. See what you can find before asking questions that have been answered elsewhere.

That said, this website is an amazing source of all kinds of information! And in general, even the most banal questions get answered in a helpful and polite manner.

Well done Basschat!

[Lowender]

This is obvious in response to my post in the other thread which was misunderstood. I think it's important to encourage when someone shows effort. I do not believe in coddling someone who's been playing for 4 weeks is whining how hard it is.

I realize also that whenever anyone has a difference of opinion or adds any perspective that isn't in concensus with the majority, it's considered trolling. My point remains -- when someone is enthusiastic, they'll love the process and nothing can stop them. That deserves encouragement. If they ask questions...that deserves encouragement. If they complain how hard it is and say they may give up...let them give up.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Lowender

[Skol303]

As someone who benefits from advice here more than offering it out (although I do have rare opportunities to be helpful!), I think all that really matters is how [u]useful[/u] the advice actually is.

I personally don't mind a terse response if the advice I'm being given is good. That's always better than a longer, more rambling reply than doesn't address the issue in question. Or worse still, a rambling reply that just points out my lack of knowledge (never had that happen on BC, I'm happy to say, but it's common on other forums).

As examples of 'good practice' I'd refer to the likes of Bilbo, Big Red X, 51mon and many others here on BC who regularly dish out good advice with just the right tone of friendliness and without the waffle. At least that's been my experience.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Skol303

[Conan]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1366121069' post='2048573']
when someone is enthusiastic, they'll love the process and nothing can stop them. That deserves encouragement. [/quote]

I agree up to a point...

Some people love learning. The actual process of learning I mean. Whereas others see the learning as a means to an end and want to get to that end as quickly as possible.

The old analogy about the journey and the destination also apply here. Sometimes it is better to travel...

[Conan]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1366121330' post='2048578']
I personally don't mind a terse response if the advice I'm being given is good. That's always better than a longer, more rambling reply than doesn't address the issue in question.[/quote]

[Skol303]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1366121627' post='2048585'] [/quote]

Haha, that wasn't aimed at you or anyone here mate!

I'm more guilty than most for rambling on anyway...

[xilddx]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1366121069' post='2048573']
This is obvious in response to my post in the other thread which was misunderstood. I think it's important to encourage when someone shows effort. I do not believe in coddling someone who's been playing for 4 weeks is whining how hard it is.

I realize also that whenever anyone has a difference of opinion or adds any perspective that isn't in concensus with the majority, it's considered trolling. My point remains -- when someone is enthusiastic, they'll love the process and nothing can stop them. That deserves encouragement. If they ask questions...that deserves encouragement. If they complain how hard it is and say they may give up...let them give up.
[/quote]

And this is entirely why you should not teach.

[Big_Stu]

New posters (I hate the term newbie, it sounds patronising) & by "new posters" I mean [i]newbies[/i], [size=2]damn damn[/size], and not someones new wall-hanging-large-picture of the tennis girl scratching her bum - yes I'm that old.......... should never, ever, [b]ever[/b], use the search function properly - to see if their question has been asked before.
If they do it means their question doesn't get asked that week & this place would be quiet for a while; it wouldn't have the regularly scheduled show of people having the same old rows on the same old subjects resulting in Groundhog Days of "yeah buts", "IMO"s wrongly used as "my opinion is never to be questioned because I'm older than you" and way way too much deliberate misunderstanding of previous posts to cause a proverbial riot in a phone-box (remember them?)

Oh - and prolific use of emoticons goes a long way - or it does if you use all of them, in a row - repeatedly.

[timmo]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1366121069' post='2048573']
This is obvious in response to my post in the other thread which was misunderstood. I think it's important to encourage when someone shows effort. I do not believe in coddling someone who's been playing for 4 weeks is whining how hard it is.

I realize also that whenever anyone has a difference of opinion or adds any perspective that isn't in concensus with the majority, it's considered trolling. My point remains -- when someone is enthusiastic, they'll love the process and nothing can stop them. That deserves encouragement. If they ask questions...that deserves encouragement. If they complain how hard it is and say they may give up...let them give up.
[/quote]
I don`t believe it was whining.If it did come over as whining then i am sorry, i must get better at expressing myself .I was Merely asking for a little help which most people seemed happy to do,which have been very helpful to me.Even your quote about it not getting any easier.I also never said i was going to give up, so not really sure where that came from.I still enjoy learning, just that sometimes it frustrates.But if you really want to say how it is, don`t attribute things to people that were never really said.I took on board your quote saying it doesn`t get any easier.But if want to come over with attitude, that is your choice.

Edited April 16, 2013 by timmo