What make good quality pickups... good?

[Skol303]

Ok, so here's the thing... over the weekend I got chatting with my old man about pickups, as you do. He's a long-retired engineer and knows his way around all manner of gear (from tanks to televisions).

He was asking why some pickups cost £10 and others cost £100+, given that - in his opinion - they all comprise the same basic components: a magnet wrapped in copper wire.

Now I know there's a huge difference in pickup types - I've been testing out many different brands and designs myself recently; I've heard the differences first hand. So I'm not questioning whether it's worth spending money on good quality pickups - I know it is. But I was stumped at giving a convincing answer as to what we actually [i]pay for[/i] in better quality pickups. I mean, is it better quality materials, construction method, design, etc?

I had a kind of 'Emperor's New Clothes' moment while discussing this, which prompted me to ask here on BC...

[chris_b]

The only reason I can see to pay extra for pickups because they will sound better. Whether that's more volume, lower hiss/noise or better tone is up to the ears of the user, but your Dad thinks that the quality of all materials are the same he's mistaken.

As I found out from Pete Stevens, of Wal, they found there was a difference in tone bewteen imperial amd metric sized wire for their pickups.

Then there are different winding techniques, over winds, under winds, hand winding, alnico, neo, the list is endless and each part can make a difference to the sound of a pickup.

Edited April 16, 2013 by chris_b

[JTUK]

Wider gauge wire, less/more turns and better magnets all contribute to a sound.
Maybe there are better quality wires..???

[Dad3353]

Regularity, and the guarantee that, from one year to the next, the production will deliver the same qualities (whatever they may be...).
Years of research have a cost, too, as does the opposite of 'economy of scale' for bespoke or 'boutique' production. Many other factors, too, of course (greed..? ), but there's a few that are not necessarily to do directly with 'engineering'.
Just my tuppence-worth.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Dad3353

[Lynottfan]

The number of winds used, the material for the magnets, for the purity of the wire, these not only increase the cost but the ability if you will, of the pickup to produce a clean sound.

[mcgraham]

I also recall reading somewhere that the density of windings per unit volume affects the sound, i.e. same length of wire wrapped tightly vs loosely will have a different sound. Would make sense that there are some differences.

You could argue all basses are made of the same materials, but it's the manner in which they are crafted to exacting specifications but that allow musicians to express themselves artistically that makes them MORE than just the sum of their component parts (IMO).

[Skol303]

^ Cheers all. Some good replies above that explain the value of craftsmanship.

My old man is still going to say, "it's just magnets and wires, no matter how you wind them!" but then he's an old skool engineer - very talented and creative - but not one for paying others for something he feels he could do himself.

I might set him the task of making some p'ups one day to test his theory (he made some superb amps and cabs when I was gigging as a youngster...wish I'd inherited more of those skills myself!).

[Dandelion]

But a magnetic field is a magnetic field, and copper wire is copper wire. So why the variation in quality? If the difference between a good quality pup and a poor quality pup is the number of windings for instance, then why don't the poor quality manufactures simply add a few more windings and flog the better pups for a larger profit? Or perhaps buy a better quality magnet for a few extra coins and do the same?

Surely the effort required to make a bad pup, is the same as to make a good pup.

So why are there so many bad pups?

Or dogs I suppose you could say..


Woof!

[charic]

Don't forget consistency as well.

[JTUK]

I remember Kent A showing how certain pickup makers ..or bass makers wanted their pickups wound.
The surprise was that you'd think more winds and the more power from them would be what was required
but people like Ken Smith and Bartolini all had their own takes.
With a bit of experimentation I came to the opinion that I liked ...by far... the less winds, thicker wire approach.
Way more character in the sound, IMO...

[Conan]

I'm not sure that there is actually a "best" pickup, is there? There are loads of threads on here where someone asks for advice about what pickups to fit in their bass, and pretty much everyone comes up with a different answer! They can't all be right - but equally, can they all be wrong?

Personal preference is a massive influence. What my ears hear and my brain likes may not be the same as everyone (or even anyone!) else likes.

BTW, my dad is exactly the same when it comes to the "it's just wire and magnets" view. I'm not quite as dogmatic as that, but I do suspect that more of the differences are perceived rather than real...

[Skol303]

[quote name='Dandelion' timestamp='1366118438' post='2048521']But a magnetic field is a magnetic field, and copper wire is copper wire. So why the variation in quality?[/quote]

Yep, you've nailed it! That's exactly the question I was trying to find answers to here. You just put it much better than I did

[xilddx]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1366121692' post='2048586']
Yep, you've nailed it! That's exactly the question I was trying to find answers to here. You just put it much better than I did
[/quote]
The properties of both being highly variable. Type of wire, type of magnets, etc.

Windings are also highly varied, I hear scatterwound are the most characterful.

The cost of materials and production are big factors.

Ask your dad if he thinks all cars are the same because they have four wheels and an engine. Or if all coffee is the same, just beans and water, etc.

[Skol303]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1366122568' post='2048601']Ask your dad if he thinks all cars are the same because they have four wheels and an engine. Or if all coffee is the same, just beans and water, etc.[/quote]

I wouldn't want to get him started, Nige!

Lots of obvious variables in a car, of course. Perhaps less so with coffee (in very simplistic terms). I think that example is closer to my old man's Devil's Advocacy over pickups - i.e. "just magnets and copper wire / beans and hot water, innit". He's actually got a good head on him for audio stuff; he used to work on projects for Marconi and other telecoms companies. But he's also a stubborn so-and-so!

Still, it got me thinking about what it is we actually [i]pay for[/i] when we spend money on pickups - as the 'workings' of them are ultimately very simple (as opposed to the inner workings of a stage synth, for instance).

Like I said, I've been geeking out and doing lots of shop trials and research into p'ups recently. There's an undisputable difference between top and bottom end products. I guess if the 'secret' ingredients were widely known then everyone would be at (the filthy swines!).

[xilddx]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1366125222' post='2048657']
I wouldn't want to get him started, Nige!

Lots of obvious variables in a car, of course. Perhaps less so with coffee (in very simplistic terms). I think that example is closer to my old man's Devil's Advocacy over pickups - i.e. "just magnets and copper wire / beans and hot water, innit". He's actually got a good head on him for audio stuff; he used to work on projects for Marconi and other telecoms companies. But he's also a stubborn so-and-so!

Still, it got me thinking about what it is we actually [i]pay for[/i] when we spend money on pickups - as the 'workings' of them are ultimately very simple (as opposed to the inner workings of a stage synth, for instance).

Like I said, I've been geeking out and doing lots of shop trials and research into p'ups recently. There's an undisputable difference between top and bottom end products. I guess if the 'secret' ingredients were widely known then everyone would be at (the filthy swines!).
[/quote]
The price of R&D, materials, production.

Does he realise the variance in alnico magnet types for instance?

[xilddx]

Does this help?

[size=4][b]Pickup design/selection issues:[/b][/size]

[size=4]There are far too many variables in pickup design to even approach a thorough treatment of the subject here. However, the following tips will help you understand how pickups affect tone so that you can make a more intelligent decision if considering aftermarket pickups.[/size][list]
[*][size=4]How "hot" the pickup will be depends primarily on two variables; how strong the magnet is, and how many turns of wire are on the coil. However, both of these factors also affect the tonal response of the pickup.[/size]
[*][size=4][size=4]Any coil of wire is an inductor, and the impedance (total resistance) of an inductor varies with frequency (the higher the frequency, the higher the impedance). When you add more turns of wire to a coil, you are increasing the inductance and thus altering the frequency response. "Overwound" coils and humbuckers usually have less high frequency response (cleverly marketed as "stronger midrange").[/size][/size]
[*][size=4][size=4]Changing the guage (diameter) of the coil wire changes inductance and thus alters the frequency response of the pickup.[/size][/size]
[*][size=4][size=4]Changing the size or shape of the coil changes the inductance and thus alters the frequency response of the pickup.[/size][/size]
[*][size=4][size=4]Coils not only have a certain inductance, they also have a certain amount of "parasitic" capacitance. Different winding techniques will result in slightly different capacitance and thus affect the tonal response of the pickup.[/size][/size]
[*][size=4][size=4]Making the magnet stronger also has an effect on tone, in that the stronger magnet will generally give a sharper attack and "harder" tone. However, the greatest impediment to simply using very strong magnets to get a very high output is the fact that strong magnets will kill sustain by "dragging" the strings.[/size][/size]
[*][size=4][size=4]As a generalizaton:[/size] [/size]
[list]
[*][size=4][size=4]"Soft" magnet and fewer turns on coil - sweet, bell-like clear tones.[/size][/size]
[*][size=4][size=4]"Hard" magnet and fewer turns on coil - glassy hot Strat sound.[/size][/size]
[*][size=4][size=4]"Soft" magnet and more turns (or humbucker) - smooth, buttery midrange.[/size][/size]
[*][size=4][size=4]"Hard" magnet and more turns (or humbucker) - grunge or "Texas" sound.[/size][/size]
[/list]
[/list]
[size=4][size=4]From: [url="http://www.guitarnuts.com/wiring/pickups.php"]http://www.guitarnut...ing/pickups.php[/url][/size][/size]

Edited April 16, 2013 by xilddx

[KingBollock]

This question keeps bouncing around me bounce, too. Wish someone would do a YouTube video where they wind their own pickups and then compare them. Starting with different amounts of winds, different kinds of winds and thickness of the wire, then going on to different types of magnets.
I would love to have a crack at winding my own and something like that would help me to choose what to have a go at.

Edit: Thanks for that xliddx, that goes a long way to helping me understand the differences.

Edited April 16, 2013 by KingBollock

[Skol303]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1366125913' post='2048680']The price of R&D, materials, production.

Does he realise the variance in alnico magnet types for instance?[/quote]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1366126200' post='2048685']Does this help?

[size=4][b]Pickup design/selection issues...[/b][/size][/quote]

Nice one mate, that's a good summary of the different variables involved.

I think you're spot on about the investment in R&D. Different magnet types (even the alnico alloys you mention), number of coil turns, coil guage, etc, don't vary [i]that[/i] much in cost, all things considered. But then of course selecting the right mix of these variables to deliver a particular tone takes time and experimentation, which must ultimately be paid for (by consumers). Plus there's the additional cost of manufacturing products by hand, with love and attention to detail, versus mass-producing cheaper items using machines, etc, etc.

Next time it crops up in conversation I'll be a little better versed at explaining the differences

Edited April 16, 2013 by Skol303

[the boy]

100% it all boils down to material used and quality control. Good magnets, hi quality wire at the right gauge and how it's put together. You could bang together a pickup from bits and pieces lying around the house but would it sound any good? Probably not.

[Musky]

I remember Stephen Delft, who some may recall was a luthier and reviewer for International Musician, commenting that it doesn't cost much more to make a good pickup than a bad one.

So like xilddx points out, it's all going to to be down to R&D costs. I think a post by Flyfisher in another thread is apposite here.

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1361657740' post='1989068']
[i]There is an old story about a multi-million dollar power plant that had mysteriously ground to a halt. All efforts to restart it had failed and an expert was brought in. After studying the problem for a few minutes he took a hammer and hit one of the valves. With a rumble, the plant came back to life. Incredulous glances were shared, grateful cries and high-fives were exchanged. Later, the expert’s bill arrived for the amount of $10,000.00. The outraged executive in charge thought “All he did was hit a valve with a hammer, this bill is ridiculous.” he asked for an itemized breakdown and the consultant responded with a bill that read: “Hitting valve with hammer $10.00. Knowing which valve to hit: $9,990.00.”[/i]

[url="http://usinghumor.com/2008/10/knowing-where-to-hit-the-value-of-expertise/"]http://usinghumor.co...e-of-expertise/[/url]
[/quote]

Edited April 17, 2013 by Musky

[Jazzneck]

My tuppence worth of experience....... Many, many years ago I went to work on the technical side of a development product which I had come across during my previous company's job.
I was employed to improve the product so that customers found it easier to convert. I'd been at the company for a few weeks when the MD asked me (as a 26 year old technologist) why I thought the product was not selling as it seemed to be "the answer to a maidens prayer" at the time.
My comment was that for the price being asked, the product seemed too cheap - "what's wrong with it?"
So the crafty old fox doubled the price the following week and sales went exponential during the following year and continued to grow to the point that the business is still very profitable and still growing today.
Do not confuse cost with price. Market perception is very important. Quality and customer service is king.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Jazzneck

[Conan]

[quote name='Jazzneck' timestamp='1366184951' post='2049234']
the product seemed too cheap - "what's wrong with it?"
So the crafty old fox doubled the price the following week and sales went exponential during the following year and continued to grow to the point that the business is still very profitable and still growing today.
Do not confuse cost with price. Market perception is very important, Quality and customer service is king.
[/quote]

Good point. I think this is a major factor in why some people think that the very top-end pickups sound "better" than the "just good" ones. Maybe they are trying to justify their decision to spend more money than they needed to?

[richardjmorgan]

[quote name='Jazzneck' timestamp='1366184951' post='2049234']
My tuppence worth of experience....... Many, many years ago I went to work on the technical side of a development product which I had come across during my previous company's job.
I was employed to improve the product so that customers found it easier to convert. I'd been at the company for a few weeks when the MD asked me (as a 26 year old technologist) why I thought the product was not selling as it seemed to be "the answer to a maidens prayer" at the time.
My comment was that for the price being asked, the product seemed too cheap - "what's wrong with it?"
So the crafty old fox doubled the price the following week and sales went exponential during the following year and continued to grow to the point that the business is still very profitable and still growing today.
Do not confuse cost with price. Market perception is very important. Quality and customer service is king.
[/quote]
Yep. Related: if something's perceived as being good, demand increases, meaning you can charge more for it.

[Norris]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1366185437' post='2049240']
Good point. I think this is a major factor in why some people think that the very top-end pickups sound "better" than the "just good" ones. Maybe they are trying to justify their decision to spend more money than they needed to?
[/quote]
Squier/Fender anyone?

[Beer of the Bass]

The pickups in cheaper instruments can be pretty good now, since they're often copying the original designs more closely than they used to. I have a £99 Axl guitar which came with "EMG designed" alnico single coils. Out of curiosity I put in a pair of Seymour Duncans, which have the same DC resistance (I'd guess the same gauge and number of windings) though the Duncans have weaker Alnico II magnets, flatwork rather than a moulded bobbin, and are scatterwound. The difference between them is really quite subtle, with the Duncans being a bit mellower and less peaky in the upper mids but still quite open sounding. Comparing recordings made before and after, nothing about the cheaper pickups sounds obviously worse, they just have a slightly different character.