Help! my bass won't stay in tune

[Roger2611]

Hi guys and girls,

My main gigging bass is my 2008 Musicman Stingray HS, it sounds and plays fantastic but, I think it is really poor (considering the standard of the bass) at staying in tune and I can't fathom out why, I have covered the following areas:

It is currently strung with a set of Ernie ball 45 -105 coated strings, they have been on for about 2 months or 6 gigs, they are still sounding fairly fresh but are definately stretched in by now.

The strings all have 2 full winds around the string posts.

The bridge, the neck, the tuners, all screws are tight and stable.

Intonation is spot on, string heights are all good.

I can't think of anything else that could be affecting the tuning stabillity, I don't play it harder than any of the other basses....it is not dropping way out of tune but enough that I find I need to check and correct the tuning every other song whilst with the rest of my basses I will check the tuning halfway through the set....probably find it is still spot on and only ever need to do a minor retune prior to the start of the second set.

Any ideas?

Cheers
Rog

Edited April 7, 2013 by Roger2611

[tonyquipment]

Truss rod need adjusting?

Shouldn't keep going out if tune like that unless the strings are slipping for whatever reason...

[xgsjx]

I'd try another set of strings first, then if it's not them, replace the machineheads.

If that doesn't work, replace the bass.

[arthurhenry]

How do you put the strings on? I pull, stretch and bend mine with all my strength, until they won't go out of tune. Then I leave them slightly sharp for a while, before checking intonation and then off I go. I've had one tuning problem in 26 years of gigs.

[Roger2611]

[quote name='arthurhenry' timestamp='1365338026' post='2038156']
How do you put the strings on? I pull, stretch and bend mine with all my strength, until they won't go out of tune. Then I leave them slightly sharp for a while, before checking intonation and then off I go. I've had one tuning problem in 26 years of gigs.
[/quote]
Yes I do try to stretch them as much as possible and leave them sharp after putting them on...I wonder if the coated strings could be creating the problem, it is the first time I have ever used them and it is the first set of strings I have put on this bass?

[dannybuoy]

I too used to stretch the hell out of my strings until I read that it wasn't such as good idea - be gentle with them, if you go past their elastic limit you'll affect their sound and possibly make them even more prone to going out of tune!

Most common cause is the string sticking in the nut slot. You tune it in, but then it's slightly higher or lower in tension behind the nut and after a little while the string slips slightly to even itself out. Get a fine graphite rod from one of those mechanical pencils and rub it in the nut slot where the string sits.

Also after changing the strings, push down just in front of the bridge saddle so that it comes over at an sharp angle rather than a curve.

Another thing, it helps if you always tune up to the note rather than down; if it's too high in pitch, bring it down then slowly back up.

[3below]

Even really sloppy bass machines should stay in tune providing you tune up and the nut slot is correct. As above try new strings and pencil lead or wax in the nut slot.

[zero9]

Have you eliminated changes in temperature / humidity? The bass may 'warm' up during a gig if it's come in from a cold car. Depends how drastic the tuning is out, however, small changes are entirely possible under certain conditions.

[Lozz196]

Pencil graphite in the nut, and get a screwdriver and tighten all the screws on the machineheads - not over-tighten though, but any with slack, tighten them.

[Fat Rich]

[quote name='zero9' timestamp='1365343858' post='2038247']
Have you eliminated changes in temperature / humidity? The bass may 'warm' up during a gig if it's come in from a cold car. Depends how drastic the tuning is out, however, small changes are entirely possible under certain conditions.
[/quote]

Particularly if it's got the oiled finish to the neck in my experience. My Stingray seems to be ultra sensitive to everything, it means I'm constantly tweaking the truss rod to keep the action vaguely consistent and the tuning needs to be checked pretty much before every song.

I think the sealed / varnished necks are more stable.

[Grand Wazoo]

I would look at the nut, first question is it one of those compensated one, where every slot is cut at a different length? Either way, get a large builder's pencil, and rub some of the pencil led in every slot. try lots of it then wipe away the excess led dust, restring and try again.

Second thing I'd like you to check is to make sure all the 5 neck fixing screws are taught, don't over tighten them but do make sure they are screwed in properly and I will also check if the bridge fixing screws are tight. Finally check that the big nuts on the machine head are taught and if all is tightened properly and you still get strings going out of tune THEN change the strings and try again and finally if that fails too, give S&T a call and tell them about this issue they ought to want to see the bass and have it checked by one of their qualified tech.

Strings & Things are here: [url="http://www.musicmanuk.co.uk/"]http://www.musicmanuk.co.uk/[/url]

You can email them at [email="[email protected]"][email protected][/email]

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='Roger2611' timestamp='1365337301' post='2038140']The strings all have 2 full winds around the string posts.[/quote]
When you do this do you have a winding both top & bottom of the stub of the string, so that the windings are pinching onto the string, the tighter you tune the tighter the grip kind of idea? Personally I aim to get one winding above and two or three below; comme ca


(Doesn't work if you have the kind of machines where the stub is pushed down into the middle of a split post vertically)

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Roger2611' timestamp='1365337301' post='2038140']
The strings all have 2 full winds around the string posts.
[/quote]
I'd go for three or four winds.

[quote name='arthurhenry' timestamp='1365338026' post='2038156']
I pull, stretch and bend mine with all my strength, until they won't go out of tune.
[/quote]
I would never do this.

[stingrayPete1977]

The tapered post does still apply pressure BigStu, I can't imagine the modern ebmm nut is causing it either so I'd say its either the strings or the truss rod. If my basses are on the stands they are normally a tad sharp but I leave them alone as by the time the first song is finished they have normally settled back to being in tune, if I had retuned they would of gone a bit flat.

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1365350992' post='2038357']
The tapered post does still apply pressure BigStu[/quote]

I would imagine it does, but I'm very much a belt & braces person in some respects; I also do the healthy stretch of new strings to get them as "in" as I can ASAP. I'm just fishing really, never having has the OP's problem.

[jakenewmanbass]

This might seem a little obvious but tuning up (not down) helps, always approaching tuning from below the note.
The saying exists for a reason, if you tune down to correct pitch you open the coils on the machine head slightly and they can then slip to a flat sound.
This happens much less if you drop below and tune up to the desired pitch, tightening the coils as you do so.
Bit obvious but worth a try maybe.

[jonno1981]

I've had this before with a Jap P bass I had a while ago. After 10 minutes or so of playing (without digging in hard) it just kept going out of tune. I spent some time with a tech who determined that the neck wasn't flexing when tuning up, the strings weren't slipping at the tuners, the tuners themselves were stable, turned out it was the nuts slots which were trapping the windings of the strings. This can really be a problem if you do a lot of vibrato/string bending. If the string is bent and the windings lodge in the nut then when you bend back down the string stays trapped because of the winding which has been caught and doesn't return to pitch.

This is one of those annoying things that can really only be down to a number of potential causes. Best to try and systematically eliminate them one by one till you find what's causing the problem. Best of luck!

[Roger2611]

[color=#0000CD][quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1365350992' post='2038357']
The tapered post does still apply pressure BigStu, I can't imagine the modern ebmm nut is causing it either so I'd say its either the strings or the truss rod. If my basses are on the stands they are normally a tad sharp but I leave them alone as by the time the first song is finished they have normally settled back to being in tune, if I had retuned they would of gone a bit flat.
[/quote][/color]
Thanks Pete, that is exactly whats happening, at the start of the night, I will tune up once everything is set up, it will then sit on its stand until just before we play, I tune up and I find it has gone a little sharp so after the first or second song I recheck it and yes it has gone slightly flat...it's then pretty stable through the rest of the half (just dropping a cent or 2 and I guess that can be attributed to how hard you play the bass on certain songs) I then tune up at the end of the first set, retune again just before we go back on and, low and behold, its dropped a little flat after the first couple of songs.

Thanks for all the comments all were very useful...interestingly, in god knows how many years of playing, I have actually never been told to tune up to the note rather than down to it...it makes perfect sense but it is something I never knew...so thanks for that little gem.

I will re-graphite the nut and check the way I wind the strings

[quote name='Fat Rich' timestamp='1365346610' post='2038289']
Particularly if it's got the oiled finish to the neck in my experience. My Stingray seems to be ultra sensitive to everything, it means I'm constantly tweaking the truss rod to keep the action vaguely consistent and the tuning needs to be checked pretty much before every song.

[/quote]
I have to agree with Rich the Stingray does seem more sensitive than any of my other basses but with all of the above advice applied hopefully it will be more stable than a stable thing now

Thank you

[stingrayPete1977]

I'd say we have cracked it then, make sure you get the bass out and put it on its stand to acclimatise when you get to the gig, if is a little sharp before going on leave it alone, check after the first song and it will probably be spot on again over a decade of playing rays has taught me that

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1365351765' post='2038380']


I would imagine it does, but I'm very much a belt & braces person in some respects; I also do the healthy stretch of new strings to get them as "in" as I can ASAP. I'm just fishing really, never having has the OP's problem.
[/quote]
I just leave the same strings on for months once they have settled, the active treble pot on a ray can make any old strings sound fresh

Edited April 7, 2013 by stingrayPete1977

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1365353832' post='2038433']
I just leave the same strings on for months once they have settled, the active treble pot on a ray can make any old strings sound fresh
[/quote]

Agreed, nothing adds more character to your tone than algae living in your string windings......... erm, maybe

[Roger2611]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1365353832' post='2038433']
I just leave the same strings on for months once they have settled, the active treble pot on a ray can make any old strings sound fresh
[/quote]
Very true, but it's that acoustic thud of a dying set of strings that says..."excuse me...I think it's about time we were retired". At that point I know I have got to change them! The coated strings have been better and I will probably continue to use them as 6 to 8 gigs is stunning for me as I used to change them after every other gig!

[BigRedX]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1365350591' post='2038347']
I'd go for three or four winds.
[/quote]

Two should be plenty unless you need to wind the string down to the bottom of the post to get a sensible break angle over the nut. The more string you wrap around the machine head post, the longer it will take to give up its excess elasticity and therefore the longer it will take for the tuning to stabilise after changing strings.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1365354627' post='2038447']
Two should be plenty unless you need to wind the string down to the bottom of the post to get a sensible break angle over the nut. The more string you wrap around the machine head post, the longer it will take to give up its excess elasticity and therefore the longer it will take for the tuning to stabilise after changing strings.
[/quote]
Well, as you probably realise BRX, as a Fender user I do seek a break angle.

However, I've never had any issue with tuning stability even with new strings.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='Roger2611' timestamp='1365353044' post='2038410']
Thanks for all the comments all were very useful...interestingly, in god knows how many years of playing, I have actually never been told to tune up to the note rather than down to it...it makes perfect sense but it is something I never knew...so thanks for that little gem.
[/quote]
YW
I discovered it in a studio, where my bass at the time was dropping flat by the end of the songs I was recording, it was the engineer that told me of 'tune up' meaning exactly that.

Edited April 7, 2013 by jakenewmanbass