Gigs, a booking agent and my principles

[warwickhunt]

Brief summary;

We play pubs and at a couple of them local guys (self styled agents I suppose) book the bands for the venues, in return the bands pay said agents a fee of approx 10%. That isn't the cause for my conscience to be pricked, as it is a simple case of, if you want to use them to get those particular venues/gigs, then so be it (as has been said we get booking for two venues from one particular agent); if you don't want to use agents don't do those gigs!

However, we have had contact from one said agent saying that one of the venues wants to go it alone and book their own bands (why that should be so I have no idea because afaik the band pays any fee to the booker/agent NOT the venue... unless they are getting a double kick-back but of this I have no proof). This agent has stated that any band now playing said venue would have any other gigs with said agent cancelled and that band wouldn't get work in any of their venues. To be fair the agent did offer us an alternative gig on the date that he wants us to cancel, though we will obviously still pay him his fee; it could be viewed that the guy is being generous or alternatively he would have lost revenue from us had we decided to continue with the gig, this way he still gets a fee out of us.

My principles have me saying to the rest of the band that I don't want to be part of this agents machinations/schemes to cut bands from the venue in question (possibly forcing the venue to reinstate him as the agent) but equally, I don't like being threatened with this axe hanging over us of; 'Play by my rules or I cut you from other venues.'

The rest of the band have shrugged and said 'Meh! For the sake of a few gigs a year, let's just knock the venue on the head and go with the agent'. I have said 'For the sake of a few gigs a year, let's just knock the agent on the head and play this venue any way'.

Thoughts?

[Ziphoblat]

Sounds to me like the "agent" is the cock in this situation. He's screwing over the venue now, how long until he screws you? If you pull out on the venue that's going to tarnish your reputation with them (and consequently perhaps other venues). Just because the agent won't book you for any other venues he's associated with doesn't mean that those venues will think ill of you, so as soon as more of his antics have gone down and he's moved on from those venues too, you'll still be able to get the gigs. You need to keep your bands reputation as your priority.

Edited March 2, 2013 by Ziphoblat

[TheRev]

I'd be inclined to make a stand against the agent's bully-boy tactics. Saying 'meh' sends the message that its ok to take revenge on the venue by squeezing the balls of any band that want to play there.

[sprocketflup]

I think Id be telling the agent where to go, and also showing any correspondence to the other venues he 'manages' telling them why you arent or wont be playing thier venue anymore, even tho you love the place and its clientele etc

Im sure the other venues will get the hint

[Roger2611]

Difficult one! what kind of clout does the agent have? Can he get you gigs that you simply would not be able to get on your own?

The agent probably won't be around as long as the venue and venues will talk to one and other so if you blow one venue off to massage the ego of this agent you could find that somewhere down the line the agent has gone and the venues don't want to book you because of your stance on this one.

I would have to agree with the other posts on this one unless this agent has a track record of delivering spectacular results

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Roger2611' timestamp='1362236504' post='1997379']
Difficult one! what kind of clout does the agent have? Can he get you gigs that you simply would not be able to get on your own?
[/quote]

Ultimately he is a part-time agent (not paying taxes on this income etc.) who gets us a couple of gigs a few times a year. We can easily get by without his gigs, they are just easy diary filler dates in pubs that are no better or worse than the ones that we get ourselves.

[keeponehandloose]

been in very similar situation, turns out the agent
fell out with venue and was trying to use bands for his own ends. Dont be used, ditch the agent.

[TimR]

[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1362237099' post='1997384']
Ultimately he is a part-time agent (not paying taxes on this income etc.)

...
[/quote]

I'm wondering if this is the crux. Do the pubs pay you and then you pay the agent or do they pay the agent and he takes 10% and gives the rest to you?

If it's the later he'll probably be (or not!) doing paperwork and the pub may be having problems with their books showing money going to one person who isn't their employee etc.

Have the pubs maybe caught on to the fact that they're paying 11% over the top of what you're happy to play for and think they'll get away with paying less.

[skidder652003]

would deffo tell the agent to do one. How dare he threaten anyone who gets gigs direct from a venue! Who the f**k does he think he is, Harvey Weinstein?

[warwickhunt]

The pub pays us direct (cash) and we forward £30 of the £250 to the agent. It'd be guess work as to why the agent/venue have ceased to want to deal with each other but it could be that the venue have considered paying venues 10% less and thus they are making a direct saving.

[CPBass]

If it were me I'd go with the venues. Unless he has some mega marketing skills or something else that warrants loyalty i'd go with 'he who holds the purse strings'

Agents round here charge 17.5 % but they do a lot of marketing and get premium rates for their cut, they dont just 'get us a gig'

Good luck

Col

[shizznit]

Agents are much like promoters and to a certain extent...managers too. There are good ones out there and bad ones too. Ditch this one, move on until you find an agent that you like working with and doesn't ruin your chances playing at key venues.

[TimR]

[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1362237955' post='1997400']
The pub pays us direct (cash) and we forward £30 of the £250 to the agent. It'd be guess work as to why the agent/venue have ceased to want to deal with each other but it could be that the venue have considered paying venues 10% less and thus they are making a direct saving.
[/quote]

Well £30 of £250 is 12% and £30 of £220 is 13.6%. At least you know exactly what the pub are prepared to pay and possibly the pub don't know how much of a cut he is getting and may assume he's taking more.

If he's fallen out with one pub that's not your problem. I would approach the other pubs and see if they're willing to go without the middle man first then make your call. If they're happy to go with you direct as they've seen you play and know what pull you have then you don't have any decision to make.

I think the two reasons for the pub to go with an agent are
1) The agent can vet the bands and try them out in smaller venues before gambling on the better pubs.
2) if a band pulls out he probably knows enough bands that he can find someone to cover at short notice while the publican gets on with pub business.

You've done 1. you just have to convince them you can do 2.

Edited March 2, 2013 by TimR

[JTUK]

It seems to me that he wants to get 'exclusive' but he is a bit too fly.

I'd tell the venues you are quite happy to book direct but this agent does nothing you or the venue can't do..so he is the one you can afford to ditch.
I'm guessing the agent will not last too long as he is an overhead no one realy needs.

I wouldn't fall out with anyone, I just wouldn't take the gigs.

If he was a passport to better gigs then I may tolerate him more, but if he isn't... I'd cut him out.

Generally agents can't get us money in pubs that makes it wothwhile doing them or paying them.
Our pub price to an agent has to be £300 and 10%... and unless they are must-plays, then cut them/him..IMO.

[Les]

To be honest, just do the sums and make a business decision. It's not worth getting worked up about.

[Big_Stu]

Just being devil's advocate; just as a fr'instance........
What happens if other venues you play decide to follow the first venues idea? Will he try to bar you from them too? If he jacks in it at any point, would you find yourselves barred from the venue(s) because your loyalties lay with the agent & not the one with the purse-strings?

[PJT]

We have just been presented with this scenario too. Think its probably the same guy. We have told him to shove it, we only got one venue anyway and the venue want us back now that he no longer books. Yes, easy diary filler, but do we really need it? My other bugbear, with another agency, is that we have a couple of pubs who want to book us, but the agent concerned (for whatever reason) refuses to return 'phone calls and e-mails.

[oggiesnr]

To my way of thinking he's not an agent, he's a chancer who's used the fact that a few venues can't be a****d to do the work to style himself an agent. My personal opinion would be to drop him and then (if you think you need one) look for a reputable agent with a wide range of contacts rather than one who's persuaded a few pubs to work through him. Now decent agents used to charge more than 10% (it's been some time since I worked with one) but if the money's better you're still in pocket.

Steve

[mcnach]

[quote name='Ziphoblat' timestamp='1362235992' post='1997365']
Sounds to me like the "agent" is the cock in this situation. He's screwing over the venue now, how long until he screws you? If you pull out on the venue that's going to tarnish your reputation with them (and consequently perhaps other venues). Just because the agent won't book you for any other venues he's associated with doesn't mean that those venues will think ill of you, so as soon as more of his antics have gone down and he's moved on from those venues too, you'll still be able to get the gigs. You need to keep your bands reputation as your priority.
[/quote]


+1

He does not sound like the type of guy who will lose sleep if he has to screw you over to get something he wants...

Unless the gigs you get with him are really good and/or numerous... I'd say goodbye to said agent.

[mcnach]

[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1362237099' post='1997384']
Ultimately he is a part-time agent (not paying taxes on this income etc.) who gets us a couple of gigs a few times a year. We can easily get by without his gigs, they are just easy diary filler dates in pubs that are no better or worse than the ones that we get ourselves.
[/quote]


in that case, I'd approach that pub personally to book my gigs with them and forget about the "agent"

Has he got an Italian surname?

[Lozz196]

Seems like said agent is causing the problem.

That said, if the majority of your gigs are at "his" venues, unless you sound those venues out first about whether they would deal with you direct, I wouldn`t cancel any agreement with him. Otherwise your gigs for the foreseeable future may dry up.

If these venues would deal with you direct however - I`m assuming you`ve played them before, gigs went well, no cancellations, busy nights etc - then I`d sever any connections with this guy.

[PJT]

To my way of thinking he's not an agent, he's a chancer who's used the fact that a few venues can't be a****d to do the work to style himself an agent. My personal opinion would be to drop him and then (if you think you need one) look for a reputable agent with a wide range of contacts rather than one who's persuaded a few pubs to work through him. Now decent agents used to charge more than 10% (it's been some time since I worked with one) but if the money's better you're still in pocket.

Steve


"Chancer" is exactly the word that I used. Easy to get bands to fill in at short notice if a pub is left in the lurch. Bands are falling over themselves in the North East to get gigs

[gazhowe]

This 'agent' wouldn't expect you to tell him which venues he could work with so why should you accept being blackmailed over where your band can play?

My band had the same issue with a local agent a few years back and told him to forget it. We have done occasional business with him since but won't be bullied or blackmailed into taking or not doing gigs. I suggest you stick to your principles and do the same.

[wateroftyne]

Agents are the worst thing to happen to the pub scene in living memory.

[Graham]

The boy works for you, ask him where he gets the audacity to tell his employers who they can work with. He's just found a way of extracting money from bands / venues without adding anything to the process, just bloody rent-raising.

And, I'd imagine, making him feel the big man and that he's an integral part of the local scene whereas in reality he owns a diary and a phone.

Edited March 3, 2013 by Graham