Guest Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I've had this to some degree with every KB player I've ever worked with. I could be wrong but I've always put it down them wanting to play every part when learning a new song at home, ie, bass, chordal support, rhythm and lead. They just can't seem to let go of the things that they think sound ace at home when playing as part of an ensemble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 It's called comping. Good players know how to comp. Bad keyboard players think it's a freebie ticket for a concert. Garry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironside1966 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 If you play an instrument you will no what to put in, but a musician will no what to leave out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 If these keyboard players are as bad as is being made out then WTF are you still playing with them? Bad musicians in bands only exist because the other band members allow them to. You only have yourselves to blame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisnameistaken Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 The one time our keyboard player started plonking out an unimaginative bass part, I turned on my pitch shifter, a gated fuzz, a filter and a sample rate reducer and started doing some synth leads. I was originally trying to make a point but in the end I was fairly happy with it until the guitarist told us both to stop ****ing about... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Many keys players are used to playing full parts alone and are not familiar with the idea of left hand voicings that fill the middle ground in harmony between bass and melody. In my experience it's advisable to have some suggestions as to what they [i]should[/i] do rather than simply telling them what they shouldn't, I have done the latter (innocently) and been met with a range of emotions starting at confusion, passing through insecurity and ending at angry indignation. Luckily I can back my mouth up and play left hand 3rd and 7th based voicings without touching a fundamental... showing them though can also be met with indignation, I guess it depends on the character. Failing all the above, take a lump hammer to rehearsal and leave it menacingly sitting within your reach on the bass end of the keyboard... oh and adopt a manic grin! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I play keyboards, infact I've been playing keyboards since I was 4 but... I won't play them live if I can help it. Reason, it's pretty damn boring, I end up either want to improvise or fill out the sound some more. Keyboards are one of those instruments that just don't work in a band if the band don't work together as a unit. The other thing to suggest to your keys players is to tell them to pitch shift their left hand up and octave or even better use another keyboard and cut the mid content of their left hand but keep the bass content. That way you (with plenty of mid content) will be bolstered by their bass content and get a much fuller sound Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bremen Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 [quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1349359256' post='1825267'] . Failing all the above, take a lump hammer to rehearsal and leave it menacingly sitting within your reach on the bass end of the keyboard... oh and adopt a manic grin! [/quote] Or get Ted Nugent in the band (see Schnozzalee's post earlier) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Best keyboard player I've ever worked with always brought along his B3 and Leslie, made a massive amount of utterly wonderful noise, never ever got in the way of the bass parts, even using both hands like a maniac. Or the guitar parts, he is a bit of a wizard I reckon.... Mainly because he was always playing the leslie speed knob as much as the keys, but also he was all about great big slabs of pad sounds intersperced with that very rhythmical percussive B3 thing. Thing is, he can play any instrument you ask (literal, we've tried it) - then again he either has a Masters or Doctorate in music (cant remember which), wrote the Northbrook college degree course, and just inherently 'gets' it. Always a huge pleasure playing with him. Actually, always a complete adventure playing with, utter legend! Worst keyboardist I ever played with insisted on hammering out (bad) boogiewoogie basslines as low as the keyboard would go with his left hand (regardless of the style of the song), whilst constantly turning up his monitor amp until you couldn't even hear the lead vocal over him out front. He didnt last long! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 [quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1349359256' post='1825267'] Many keys players are used to playing full parts alone and are not familiar with the idea of left hand voicings that fill the middle ground in harmony between bass and melody. [/quote] I'm sorry but I don't buy this. Surely any half-decent musician knows the difference between what needs to be played in a solo context and as part of a band. The keyboard players that I know are all fantastic orchestrators and arrangers and would never do something as crass as invade another player's sonic space. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I think it may be a case of it's difficult to get into a band if you're not good with a band already when you're a keyboard player. So that person doesn't get a chance to develop to the style of playing with a band. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spongebob Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I was drumming in a band some years back, and the bassist (who was a real font of knowledge as it turned out about band stuff) said to me - 'I never join a band with keys. If you've got keys, you don't need me' was his thing. You know what, I played with a keyboard player once, and since then, I've lived by his words of wisdom! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumble Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Probs with keys players ? Just remind em they can be replaced by eight floppy drives [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lx_vWkv50uk&feature=BFa&list=SP44C2614808EB920E[/media] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1349360586' post='1825285'] Worst keyboardist I ever played with insisted on hammering out (bad) boogiewoogie basslines as low as the keyboard would go with his left hand (regardless of the style of the song), [/quote] I didn't know that you played with Jools Holland? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike257 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I get this with a guy who deps for the function band sometimes. He's a very talented, classically trained pianist, but when he goes off and learns a song on his own, he learns how to play everybody's parts all at once, and needs a bit of coaxing to dial it down when he gets in the room with us. Recent example would be 'Sex On Fire' (yeah, I know ) where we counted it off and went for it, and he turned out to be pretty much playing the bassline and both guitar parts all at once. I definitely think it's something to do with 'proper' pianists and it being very much a full-range, all encompassing instrument when played solo. Our regular keyboard player (who is also very talented) is much more of a 'band' player and leaves tons of space for the rest of us. So, yeah - don't hire a piano player who has learnt how to play it properly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 (edited) ...but isn't this the use of a headstock on a bass..? A good swipe (or two, for stubborn cases...) should get the hint across..? Better still with a long-scale; more leverage... Hope this helps, no malice intended ([i]OK; just a tad[/i]...) PS: on a practical note, try to avoid the tuning pegs. It's a beggar getting the blood off, and you may even have to re-tune..! (Shock..! Horror..!) Edited October 5, 2012 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 [quote name='charic' timestamp='1349362392' post='1825320'] I think it may be a case of it's difficult to get into a band if you're not good with a band already when you're a keyboard player. So that person doesn't get a chance to develop to the style of playing with a band. [/quote] No still not convinced. When you are playing you use your ears to decide how busy/dense or not your part needs to be. IMO this is basic musician skills. Listen to what the rest the musicians you are playing with are doing and adjust what you are doing accordingly. It's simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 But if you can't get repeating practices with a group of people how do you learn this skill without being able to play another instrument. I agree it comes naturally to a fair few people but in my own experience it wasn't a lesson I truly learned until I was playing bass (and got regular practices with other musicians) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 You'd know straight away if you were playing the wrong notes, so how can you not tell that you are playing too many notes and some of them are conflicting sonically with what the instruments are doing? Once maybe twice at the most through a song and then you'd be working out what you needed to change to make the part fit better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Honestly?... I was young and concentrating too hard on what I was playing and not enough on others playing. Another lesson I learned once I got regular practices Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 What, you don't buy that I've had the experience that I have...? I'm confused. I also know tons of really fab keyboard players, but I have had the experience the OP mentions. [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1349362071' post='1825315'] I'm sorry but I don't buy this. Surely any half-decent musician knows the difference between what needs to be played in a solo context and as part of a band. The keyboard players that I know are all fantastic orchestrators and arrangers and would never do something as crass as invade another player's sonic space. [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 [quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1349439519' post='1826320'] What, you don't buy that I've had the experience that I have...? I'm confused. I also know tons of really fab keyboard players, but I have had the experience the OP mentions. [/quote] I accept that there are keyboard players out there like the OP mentions. What I can't accept is that anyone would want to play with them more than once. As I said in my original post the only reason that these "players" exist outside of the confines of their bedrooms, is because other musicians continue to put up with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1349442907' post='1826403'] I accept that there are keyboard players out there like the OP mentions. What I can't accept is that anyone would want to play with them more than once. As I said in my original post the only reason that these "players" exist outside of the confines of their bedrooms, is because other musicians continue to put up with them. [/quote] and as per mine, some that can play don't develop the necessary skills because other musicians won't "put up with them" and allow them to develop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassTractor Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1349398420' post='1825941'] A good swipe (or two, for stubborn cases...) should get the hint across..? Better still with a long-scale; more leverage...[/quote] Sigh... I'm sick and tired of these hateful postings. You should know very well that it's rather low life to give the bassist all the disadvantages of the leverage, and the keyboardist the advantages: The nerve! best, bert Edited October 5, 2012 by BassTractor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aerodyne precision Posted March 19, 2013 Author Share Posted March 19, 2013 Thanks for all your responses, guys - the kbd player left recently after nearly walking out of a gig - clearly we weren't the right band for him! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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