Jazzjames Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Does power matter? Most of the time I use a genz benz shuttle 3 10t combo with an additional 1x10 GB cab. This little rig is so light and portable, and does sound great but you have to push it pretty hard to fill out the bottom in a function or other similar loud situation. However, I've just fixed up my SWR 4x10 and started using it again. It's a heavy old thing but it sounds so fat in a band setting. It's only getting 175w at 8 Ohms from my little genz benz head but it has much more presence than the 2 1x10s that it powers normally, which use the full 300w of power available. Something for people to think about when buying cabs, more speakers/air inside the box, potentially trumps smaller but high rated cabs.. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markstuk Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 SWR 410 @ 105db/1W/1m vs GB10 @ 97 db/1w/m may have something to do with it.. Max Watts RMS only means something when coupled with a speaker.. And cabs vary in efficiency and frequency response quite markedly.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delberthot Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 I used to gig aTrace AH150 which would've been putting out about 90w @ 8ohms into a Trace 4x12"- plenty of power Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 (edited) I have used my little shuttle 3.0 with my genz 2x12 and its fine, never ran out of steam or anything, in fact I might even prefer the sound of it to the shuttle 6.0 I normally run that cab with......... But by the rules of basschat he with a 3.0 needs a 6.0 and he with a 6.0 needs a 9.0 and so on especially if it never goes out of the bedroom! Edited May 25, 2012 by stingrayPete1977 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 All my gear is bought for gigging, so I don’t know what you’d want for playing in your [s]bedroom[/s] music room. With good reason, most people don't red line their revs when driving; same with amps and cabs. In my playing experience pushing amps and cabs to their limit doesn't get me the sound I want so I always ensure that I buy gear with a lot of watts left over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Agree..a lot of amps just can't sound the same going up through the volume dial... and it depends if you can live with what the amp sounds like when pushed hard. This is why I would want a lot of power left in the tank for amp and cab.and also might go to general build quality and this sorts the men out from the boys, ampwise.IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 As markstuk put it, the efficiency is a major factor - 105 db against 97 db. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 I think you'd have to go a long way to beat a good 410...but you might decide you can get by if weight and space is the major consideration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 (edited) Stating the obvious here... Your 4x10 is a much bigger box that has drivers that cover twice the mass of the 2 1x10s. if it was 2 2x10s & you'd be covering the same sort of territory. And to answer your question, not anywhere as much as it's made out to by sales & marketing. Edited May 25, 2012 by xgsjx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregBass Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 As watts are a linear power measure while your ears hear logarithmically, you actually need to muliply your power by 10 to make it "sound" twice as loud. Similarly, for the output efficiencies quoted each 3db increase represents a doubling of output air movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomBassmonkey Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Wattage isn't too important. Speaker surface area (combined) is probably the most important factor followed by sensitivity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahpook Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 no, it's girth. always the girth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime_BASS Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 [quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1337967488' post='1668227'] SWR 410 @ 105db/1W/1m vs GB10 @ 97 db/1w/m may have something to do with it.. Max Watts RMS only means something when coupled with a speaker.. And cabs vary in efficiency and frequency response quite markedly.... [/quote] also it shouldn't be surprising that more speakers give you more..... As good as some of the tiny 1x10/1x12 cabs are, if you compare it to anything a lot bigger, it will get truanced. Unless you arte using Barefaced..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 [quote name='Prime_BASS' timestamp='1338020397' post='1668632'] also it shouldn't be surprising that more speakers give you more..... As good as some of the tiny 1x10/1x12 cabs are, if you compare it to anything a lot bigger, it will get truanced. Unless you arte using Barefaced..... [/quote] nope...it will get tonked by decent 410's.... so assume you joke. I can't think of 2x112's that can get there, let alone one. My 2x210's trounce my 2x112's in everything bar weight and carry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 [quote name='ThomBassmonkey' timestamp='1337983826' post='1668468'] Wattage isn't too important. Speaker surface area (combined) is probably the most important factor followed by sensitivity. [/quote]Where maximum output is concerned that's governed by driver displacement, not surface area. You can have a 1x12 with the same displacement as a 4x10, so both could be equally loud. Sensitivity, however, is directly related to both the size of the cab and the number of drivers used. Said 1x12 would probably require four times the power to reach the same levels as the 4x10. So if you opt for a small high displacement driver cab and want to get high output from it you may need a new amp as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinman Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 Just an observation but I often see comments in threads such as this like "My XXX is putting out n Watts into my YYY cab" as though the amp's output is somehow a constant and is providing output even during silence rather than ranging from 0 Watts to whatever in proportion to the output signal. It may be the way I read some comments but on the other hand it may be a popular misconception! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 [quote name='thinman' timestamp='1338123452' post='1669819'] Just an observation but I often see comments in threads such as this like "My XXX is putting out n Watts into my YYY cab" as though the amp's output is somehow a constant and is providing output even during silence rather than ranging from 0 Watts to whatever in proportion to the output signal. It may be the way I read some comments but on the other hand it may be a popular misconception! [/quote]It's both popular and a total misconception. FWIW, amps don't 'put out watts' at all, they provide voltage. How much power is being drawn in the process is determined by the voltage swing and current draw; current draw is based on load impedance, and the load impedance varies over about a 10:1 range depending on frequency. A speaker could be burning 100 watts at 100Hz but only 10 watts at 50Hz, while producing the same output at both frequencies. But that kind of information doesn't sell amps, so you won't find it in any marketing literature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Of course it isn't but as most of us don't live in the world of acoustic nerdyness, watts is a convenient descriptor for the average musician to gauge what is to be expected from their gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Watts have always been a good a way to work out whether or not a rig is going to be loud enough. Yes, there are much more technical things to look at, but I`ve always been confident that 300 watt amps and above will be loud enough, and likewise, that 100 watt amps and below will be pushed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 [quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1338200097' post='1670607'] Of course it isn't but as most of us don't live in the world of acoustic nerdyness, watts is a convenient descriptor for the average musician to gauge what is to be expected from their gear. [/quote] [quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1338201375' post='1670635'] Watts have always been a good a way to work out whether or not a rig is going to be loud enough. Yes, there are much more technical things to look at, but I`ve always been confident that 300 watt amps and above will be loud enough, and likewise, that 100 watt amps and below will be pushed. [/quote] It would be convenient if it had any reflection on volume, or perceived volume, or tone, but it doesn't. Have you tried gigging a 100w amp, what problem did you encounter? I'm gigging a 140w amp with my ridiculous spl requirements. It is kind of like judging the speed of a vehicle from its fuel consumption and ignoring the difference between a motorbike and an oil tanker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Last time I used a 100 watt (solid state) amp at a gig, it was inaudible on stage, on full volume. I`m not tallking difficult to hear, it could not be heard at all - no matter what eq settings I tried. Whereas I`ve never had any similar problems with amps of 300 watts or more. So the technology and theory is fine, but I let my ears make the decision, if they can hear an amp it`s loud enough, if they can`t, it`s not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 In the real world most players need basic info that lets them know they are not going to do anything stupid and blow something up, like connecting 2 4 ohm cabs or pushing a 1000watt amp flat out into a 110 cab. Manufacturers need to communicate to their customers in simple and effective terms. Oh, hold on! They already do! That's why, imperfect and as inaccurate as it is, the term [i]watts[/i] has been co-opted and used by 99.9% of the gear manufacturers for the last 60 years to describe to us players how to compare and match their products. I've got a music centre that does me fine. Insistent advice from you guys that I need a Pass Labs XA30.5 Class-A stereo amp or a Krell Evolution 2250e stereo power amplifier is interesting but not always relevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markstuk Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 I suspect he does not.. I've a Barefaced S12T and an EBS Proline 410 (not a bad example of the breed and in fine working condition) and although there are major tonal differences the S12 moves more air and is so close in SPL it's hard to split them.. As BFM says air moved = xmax x surface area, and the Barefaced drivers have a large Xmax.. [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1338025880' post='1668745'] nope...it will get tonked by decent 410's.... so assume you joke. I can't think of 2x112's that can get there, let alone one. My 2x210's trounce my 2x112's in everything bar weight and carry. [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Ignorance, coupled with Gear Stockholm Syndrome. The good thing about this particular version of identification with their captors is that escape only involves the simple act of learning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Ha ha. Sticks and stones etc. You lot are like Jehovah Witnesses, relentless and keepers of the only version of the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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