Does power matter?

[stingrayPete1977]

Almost

[stingrayPete1977]

power is measured in voltage

[Happy Jack]

But we're talking about amps ...

[dincz]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1338226750' post='1671162']
But we're talking about amps ...
[/quote]

Current is measured in amps

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1338204935' post='1670708']
Last time I used a 100 watt (solid state) amp at a gig, it was inaudible on stage, on full volume. I`m not tallking difficult to hear, it could not be heard at all - no matter what eq settings I tried. Whereas I`ve never had any similar problems with amps of 300 watts or more. So the technology and theory is fine, but I let my ears make the decision, if they can hear an amp it`s loud enough, if they can`t, it`s not.
[/quote]

Ah, I see where you went wrong. You'll need to add a cab or two to that setup.

[stingrayPete1977]

Thats the problem though Happy Jack, the consumption may be the same for two amps yet the Db be totally different, hence someones comment about mpg before.

[Musky]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1338226750' post='1671162']
But we're talking about amps ...
[/quote]
Well I thought it was funny...

[stingrayPete1977]

Sorry it's been a long day, I missed the joke

[Happy Jack]

Phew - I was getting worried.

[stingrayPete1977]

V over IR

[Lozz196]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1338227174' post='1671173']
Ah, I see where you went wrong. You'll need to add a cab or two to that setup.
[/quote]

Sarcasm in the extreme Mr Foxen, love it

[Musky]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1338230516' post='1671256']
V over IR
[/quote]

That's Ohm's Law, and not directly related to watts as such.

Also electrical power is measured in Watts, and electrical power consumption is measured in watt hours.

[Marvin]

I really don't see watt the fuss is about.


/I've already got me coat

[51m0n]

No watts are what the marketing department of all sorts of amp companies have lead you to believe is a perfectly good descriptor of what you can expect from a piece of gear.

In fact it isnt even close.

It doesnt take into account frequency, it doesnt take into account driver sensitivity or displacement or the efficiency of the cabinet design. It doesnt take into account the behaviour of the amp as you approach overload overdriving very pleasantly to give more apparent volume (the old 'tube watts' myth) verses sound like gash (nasty solid state distortion).

In fact its almost totally useless. You can have a 1Kw amp driving a couple of 8" drivers in a sealed cab the size of a shoe box, it wont be loud enough to gig with. You can have a 100w tube amp driven hard into a pair of 8x10s - chances are it will be plenty loud enough if you arent after clean output.

Edited May 29, 2012 by 51m0n

[Mr. Foxen]

Power demands in music aren't constant, and capacitors are cheap.

[dincz]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1338280900' post='1671925']
Power demands in music aren't constant, and capacitors are cheap.
[/quote]

Why? Because he didn't mention instantaneous power. As written it amounts to perpetual motion.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='dincz' timestamp='1338280996' post='1671926']
Why? Because he didn't mention instantaneous power. As written it amounts to perpetual motion.
[/quote]

Didn't specify anything. Output watt ratings are pretty much meaningless anyway, so it is fully valid to be able to have a rating above the consumption, because amplifier output isn't like mains output.

[dincz]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1338281810' post='1671935']
Didn't specify anything. Output watt ratings are pretty much meaningless anyway, so it is fully valid to be able to have a rating above the consumption, because amplifier output isn't like mains output.
[/quote]

I agree that power figures are meaningless - IF the measurement method is not stated. If a manufacturer provides figures for both continuous output power AND peak power for a SPECIFIED duration, then they are very meaningful. Provided they are interpreted along with other relevant info.

There seem to be only two points of view around here:
1. Power is everything
2. Power is meaningless

[51m0n]

No, I think what is being said is:-

[indent=1]Enough real world volume for your gig is everything[/indent]

[indent=1]Power measurements (and cab sensitivity for that matter) as expressed by manufactureers in watts is nothing - since it is so totally oversimplifiying the truth as to be meaningless on its own as a measurement by which to tell if a setup is actually fit for purpose.[/indent]

[xgsjx]

Go Go Power Rangers!

[dincz]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1338286656' post='1672031']
Enough real world volume for your gig is everything[/quote]

I don't think anyone's arguing with that - at least I hope not. The point is that if meaningful and accurate figures are available, and if they are interpreted by someone who understands what they really mean, then it's possible to predict which amp is going to match your needs - in terms of output power anyway - before handing over any money.

Tone is another thing. Clinical, warm or fluffy are not meaningful specifications.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='dincz' timestamp='1338283581' post='1671971']
There seem to be only two points of view around here:
1. Power is everything
2. Power is meaningless
[/quote]Point one comes from those who do not understand how gear works. Point two comes from those who do. What really matters is voltage swing. It takes a given voltage swing to drive a speaker to full output; if the amp can deliver that voltage swing you'll get full output. If it can't you won't. Voltage swing removes power factor and duty cycle from the equation, and all of the spec fudging that they allow. Amplifier and transducer engineers are well aware of this fact, so voltage swing is what they consider when designing your gear. Marketing departments and the vast majority of consumers don't.

[51m0n]

[quote name='dincz' timestamp='1338296174' post='1672264']
I don't think anyone's arguing with that - at least I hope not. [i][b]The point is that if meaningful and accurate figures are available[/b][/i], and if they are interpreted by someone who understands what they really mean, then it's possible to predict which amp is going to match your needs - in terms of output power anyway - before handing over any money.

Tone is another thing. Clinical, warm or fluffy are not meaningful specifications.
[/quote]

Well there you have it, Watts [i]alone [/i]doesnt come close to falling under that description, its a small part of a far more complex situation.

You can take a very very rough guideline along the lines of [i]300w[/i] of [i]clean[/i] power as reported by a completely honest manufacturer ([i]there's a serious get out of jail free card![/i]) running through a large format cab at optimum impedance [i]should[/i] be ok for most pub gigs and smaller stages [i](caveate being that there are a million reasons why it might not be enough so dont even begin to use this as gospel!!!!!)[/i]

Fact is ratings for amps and cabs are the job of the marketing department, not the engineers in the r & d department (TC Electronic anybody?) and as such are almost always generous, incomplete, and frankly obfuscatory to the actual truth when you get down to the nitty gritty. Otherwise we wouldnt be in this thread at all, because theere would be no confusion.

Go ask Alex at Barefaced what he thinks about all this!

[dincz]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1338296685' post='1672271']
if the amp can deliver that voltage swing [b][i](to a specified load)[/i][/b] you'll get full output.
[/quote]

[dincz]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1338296724' post='1672272']
Well there you have it, Watts [i]alone [/i]doesnt come close to falling under that description, its a small part of a far more complex situation.
[/quote]

I think we've reached agreement, i.e. not that power is meaningless, but power alone is meaningless.