Being asked to turn down by management

[JTUK]

We wouldn't walk out if already there and half way through a set.. no point in throwing away what you have half earned, but we regularly review if a place is the sort we want to play, and if we didn't like the landlord/booker/owner/clientelle etc , we wouldn't do it again.

In one town around here, we have blown out 3 pubs...( just need to fulfil a last date there in Dec) as not the sort of places that we want to play so therefore down to just the one.
Sometimes, it is better for us to stick to a one main venue per town anyway.

[Lozz196]

Think I agree with you on that Dave. if you`ve done one set, you may as well do the other as well, then decide to not play there again.

If however the request came at soundcheck, and you couldn`t get it down to what the landlord/owner wanted, well at that point you may as well leave, if the whole thing isn`t going to be mutually beneficial.

However, with our last band, if a new venue came up, we always made a point of going to see a band play there, to see if there was one of those awful sound-monitor things, plus if the stage area was big enough, and if the bands were being asked to turn down, that kind of thing. A Friday or Saturday night spent checking the venue out is worthwhile.

[BottomE]

[quote name='dave_bass5' timestamp='1317199973' post='1387832']
A few people have suggested you walk if you dont like it, or dont feel you can accommodate. Do people actually do this?
Would you really turn up, play say one set, get asked to turn down, realise you cant/wont and then just pack up in front of everyone and walk out without getting paid?
[/quote]
Yes - why not? Only happened once. In our case the only alternative was to play without drums as having done all we could to nullify the problem the bass drum was still the source of the "problem". The drummer was really under pressure through no fault of his own. He took all the anger and criticism from the management to heart. Our genre of music needs drums. The management showed a complete lack of understanding and were quite aggressive in their tone. This was a wine bar, not a music venue and they should have done their homework. We play all over town and they booked us knowing what we were - a five piece with drums. We discussed it at half-time and decided unanimously that we didn't need the gig, money or hassle and packed up and left. Whats so surprising?

[Monckyman]

Blaming the landlord for allowing an "inappropriately loud" band to be booked in his bar is ridiculous, and a complete avoidance of your own responsibility as the person in control of the sound equipment.
"He shouldn`t have booked us, we are a ROCK band. man. like." Coupled with "What does HE know, hes a feckin landlord ffs"
Is just a copout.
Well, how [i]would[/i] he know if he`s a feckin landlord?
It`s the band who set the volume, it`s the band`s responsibility to accommodate their paying client.
I understand about clueless venue managers and grumpy pensioners, I`ve done it all, the bingo scene the working mens clubs.The pubs with no stage.
Doesn`t matter, they might all be utter twats, but it`s still YOUR job to make the gig happen because you are the professionals who are supposed to understand how it[i] can[/i] all work.
You can`t blame others for not being as clued up as you, then proceed to ignore what they want.
The best bands understand how to compromise and make everyone walk away happy,and that`s nothing to do with how well you can play.
I often work as a sound engineer in Europe and in certain countries like Swizterland and Holland they have a very strict decibel limit, often tied in to a computer which records the peaks, and is inspected by H+S people.
This makes the venue engineers very twitchy.
Now, obviously you get comments from the drummer like " why did our agent book this venue when the snare alone breaks the Db limit? It`s our ART man ffs sniff" But they understand that`s just how it is.
You just have to accept that some gigs are great, and others are hard work. And that you are the glue which holds it all together despite the twats in charge.
Man.


r.i.p Flt Lt Pudephatt DFM (Posthumous)

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1317201312' post='1387842']
This was a wine bar, not a music venue and they should have done their homework.
[/quote]

No offence but should you have as well? I can understand that if its not working at sound check some people might pack up and go home (to be honest i think thats not a nice thing to do but thats just me) but its also partly the band's responsibility to at least survey the situation, either before taking the gig or before turning up, make a phone call or two if your worried.
Walking away from a gig, one that people listening might be enjoying, just because you get the hump is a bit like throwing your toys out of the pram IMO.
I

[derrenleepoole]

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1317201559' post='1387848']
Blaming the landlord for allowing an "inappropriately loud" band to be booked in his bar is ridiculous, and a complete avoidance of your own responsibility as the person in control of the sound equipment.[/quote]

This is quite a black and white interpretation and doesn't take into account all the facts and variables. If a landlord is booking a band, there's a certain expectation on their part on what to expect. Now, if there are genuine issues where sound levels must be kept under control at a venue, it's up to the landlord to ensure this is communicated adequately beforehand. But off course, as we all know, this may not happen. Also, the band has some responsibility too to ensure that the venue understands what they're bringing to the table. So it's a two way exchange with both parties concerned.

Now, I'm all for being professional and will always endeavour to deliver a professional performance no matter what the restrictions imposed on me are. But, if those demands being put on you/me are totally unrealistic, there has to be a point at which you say no and walk away. This isn't unprofessional, quite the opposite really. As a band entity, you're selling a product that is the music and the performance. In my opinion, it's far better to not do the gig, rather than trying to hash through it and potentially making the whole situation worse. There are always more venues to play. But yes, you should always try to do the gig if possible...

Edited September 28, 2011 by derrenleepoole

[Monckyman]

I`m sorry, but in my opinion, you are wrong.
How does suiting the DB limit to the venue consist of "hashing through it"?
The landlord does have a responsibility to ensure you are appropriate for his bar, but that`s one small thing on his list of responsibilities.
You however, are solely concerned with the show, the sound, the venue, that`s all in your area of responsibility and as the previous poster explained, as a band you have to at least try to check out the venues yourself.
So if the bar is inappropriate for your show,and you accept the booking only you are responsible.
I understand many venues may be a couple of hundred miles away, and you can`t personally check them out,but you can talk to the manager/landlord to ensure you aren`t trying to take your Bat out of Hell tribute band with a 3k rig into a wine bar suitable for 60 sitting guests.
I`m really quite strongly of the opinion that if a covers band that exists solely to cater for the Pub/Function circuit can`t perform a show quietly enough to suit super sensitive venues, they aren`t ready to work.
I don`t know if you ever did a show while watching the old "Redeye" db power cut limiter that most social clubs had to install at one time.
You HAD to play quieter than you liked. Or walk away.No arguments, no DFA knobs.
We still took those gigs even though we knew they had limiters fitted.
What would you do about that I wonder? Simply state you can`t work under these conditions and do one?
[s]Flouncing off is for children. [/s]
To put it simply, I`m of the opinion that if your show relies on a minimum decibel level, then YOU have to ensure the bookings you accept can accommodate that and are aware of it.
MM

Edited September 28, 2011 by Monckyman

[Ou7shined]

One of the most fun gigs I've ever done was with my Pearl Jam tribute. The venue was in a small high street café at night in Aviemore. We had a late start due to technical difficulties (the drummer had left half his kit some 100 miles down the road - so we had to scrounge some locally). It was literally packed out the door, people had to watch us through the front windows and were dancing out on the street. We played every song off our 25+ set list (I think we even had to play some twice, the night went on so long) with an acoustic break in the middle and some very drunk acoustic stuff at the end. It was a completely inappropriate venue (with a complete lack of power points)... but everyone had a great time.

It just goes to show.

[derrenleepoole]

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1317204222' post='1387897']
I`m sorry, but in my opinion, you are wrong.
How does suiting the DB limit to the venue consist of "hashing through it"?
The landlord does have a responsibility to ensure you are appropriate for his bar, but that`s one small thing on his list of responsibilities.
You however, are solely concerned with the show, the sound, the venue, that`s all in your area of responsibility and as the previous poster explained, as a band you have to at least try to check out the venues yourself.
So if the bar is inappropriate for your show,and you accept the booking only you are responsible.
I understand many venues may be a couple of hundred miles away, and you can`t personally check them out,but you can talk to the manager/landlord to ensure you aren`t trying to take your Bat out of Hell tribute band with a 3k rig into a wine bar suitable for 60 sitting guests.
I`m really quite strongly of the opinion that if a covers band that exists solely to cater for the Pub/Function circuit can`t perform a show quietly enough to suit super sensitive venues, they aren`t ready to work.
I don`t know if you ever did a show while watching the old "Redeye" db power cut limiter that most social clubs had to install at one time.
You HAD to play quieter than you liked. Or walk away.No arguments, no DFA knobs.
We still took those gigs even though we knew they had limiters fitted.
What would you do about that I wonder? Simply state you can`t work under these conditions and do one?
[s]Flouncing off is for children. [/s]
To put it simply, I`m of the opinion that if your show relies on a minimum decibel level, then YOU have to ensure the bookings you accept can accommodate that and are aware of it.
MM
[/quote]

I think we're both saying the same thing really. I will always try to do a gig no matter, but if push came to shove, and a demand was too 'unrealistic,' and that's the key word really, then I would have to consider not doing the gig. Doing your research before hand is crucial and this is what I would always advocate. Usually situations like this only happen when there's a breakdown in communication or misunderstanding.

[BottomE]

[quote name='dave_bass5' timestamp='1317202648' post='1387867']

No offence but should you have as well? I can understand that if its not working at sound check some people might pack up and go home (to be honest i think thats not a nice thing to do but thats just me) but its also partly the band's responsibility to at least survey the situation, either before taking the gig or before turning up, make a phone call or two if your worried.
Walking away from a gig, one that people listening might be enjoying, just because you get the hump is a bit like throwing your toys out of the pram IMO.
I
[/quote]
The irony is that the company has two wine bars and we still play in the other one. So the guy at this bar booked us because we did well in their other establishment and he knew exactly what we were like. Why would we suspect that there would be a problem? We don't advertise of actively seek gigs. They all come from recommendation. If someone books us we assume they do so because they might have an inkling about what they are doing. Noone is throwing their toys out of anything - sometimes in life things don't work out. We are a band and playing without a drummer wasn't an option. Get over it. Its was just a gig not life or death. I am glad that we took the decision and would do so again.

[Monckyman]

Outshined,It does go to show, and I`m all for those shows too. I suppose the landlord having no objections forms a large part of "appropriate"
But if he had.....

Derren, yes, I think we are in agreement.
Maybe im a little harsh, but I daily have to put up with musos wheeling in Blackstars and Ampeg 810s to a medium sized venue and getting surly when I explain that leaving them on 10 isn`t a viable option.
"But, like... It HAS to be this loud to get the TONE man... Wrong.
"But ,like the last venue was smaller and this is how it was set" Lie.
"But, like, I can`t hear myself if I turn down" Admission of previous damage to hearing on account of dangerous and harmful level of amp.....
So if musos get surly with the sound guy at an established venue, what must they be like with Pub landlord?
I really believe most [i]Covers[/i] bands are easily competent enough to tailor their overall sound and volume to the venue they are in, and those that aren`t, Darwins law applies.
MM

p.s my current band uses an electronic kit.

Edited September 28, 2011 by Monckyman

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1317204620' post='1387914']
One of the most fun gigs I've ever done was with my Pearl Jam tribute. The venue was in a small high street café at night in Aviemore. We had a late start due to technical difficulties (the drummer had left half his kit some 100 miles down the road - so we had to scrounge some locally). It was literally packed out the door, people had to watch us through the front windows and were dancing out on the street. We played every song off our 25+ set list (I think we even had to play some twice, the night went on so long) with an acoustic break in the middle and some very drunk acoustic stuff at the end. It was a completely inappropriate venue (with a complete lack of power points)... but everyone had a great time.

It just goes to show.
[/quote]

That rings a bell. my girlfriends mum used to live in Aviemore (now in kemnay), just above the Chinese takeaway on the main road. I remember one night hearing some PJ coming from that cafe and there was a small crowd out on the street dancing. It must have been you. Sounded great.

Sorry, back to the topic in hand.

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1317205079' post='1387932']
The irony is that the company has two wine bars and we still play in the other one. So the guy at this bar booked us because we did well in their other establishment and he knew exactly what we were like. .
[/quote]

We've had similar with social clubs. one club loves us will pass on our details to another, as "we will go down a storm", only to find the second club dont like us.
I guess its never clear cut but we would never leave a gig half played.Maybe thats just us though.

Edited September 28, 2011 by dave_bass5

[BottomE]

[quote name='dave_bass5' timestamp='1317205346' post='1387944']

We've had similar with social clubs. one club how loves us will pass on our details to another, as "we will go down a storm", only to find the second club dont like us.
I guess its never clear cut but we would never leave a gig half played.Maybe thats just us though.
[/quote]
Would you do it without the drummer?

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1317205465' post='1387951']
Would you do it without the drummer?
[/quote]

No because i go in the drummers car ;-)

Seriously, we do have drummer problems, as in he is too loud sometimes, but if it came to it then yes, we would just get him to use brushes or just keep the bass drum going. We done two gigs (in 7 years) that this has happened. Its not ideal of course but its just one gig. you've made the effort to get there and set up, you might as well get paid for the effort.

Then again, all our gigs are contracted so we have to do them.

[BottomE]

[quote name='dave_bass5' timestamp='1317205901' post='1387965']

No because i go in the drummers car ;-)

Seriously, we do have drummer problems, as in he is too loud sometimes, but if it came to it then yes, we would just get him to use brushes or just keep the bass drum going. We done two gigs (in 7 years) that this has happened. Its not ideal of course but its just one gig. you've made the effort to get there and set up, you might as well get paid for the effort.

Then again, all our gigs are contracted so we have to do them.
[/quote]
Fair enough. We chose not to. We could hear the punters talking over the sound of the band. We'd lost any balance between instruments that we had. It was pointless. Noone was getting anything out of the gig except stress. Why bother? Lifes too short. We went and had a nice drinky in a more reasonable place. End of.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='dave_bass5' timestamp='1317205170' post='1387935']

That rings a bell. my girlfriends mum used to live in Aviemore (now in kemnay), just above the Chinese takeaway on the main road. I remember one night hearing some PJ coming from that cafe and there was a small crowd out on the street dancing. It must have been you. Sounded great.

Sorry, back to the topic in hand.
[/quote]
Haha cheers. Hope we didn't wake you or anything.

The thing with Aviemore though I think is that it is a holiday resort/tourist town so a degree of late night noise is accetable... I hope.
And more pertinent to the thread, we were invited to go and play there, after someone saw us play here in Aberdeen. [color=#a9a9a9]Got paid rather handsomely too I remember. [/color]

[Thunderthumbs]

I don't believe in the traffic light monitor system. I've played in a hotel in Altrincham that had one, and it didn't matter how loud I played certain notes, it had no effect. Yet, if I played a C (I think) anywhere on the neck, and held it, no matter how quiet, the monitor system went into the red. We played as quiet as we could, yet the power still tripped about 3 or 4 times. At that point, we packed up and just played songs through the laptop into the PA instead.

I've also played a place in Harrogate, where the sensor for the monitor system was directly behind my bass cab. Crazy stuff. Again, we kept it as quiet as we could, yet the power tripped in the middle of the first song. We had a word with the manager, who had no problem with our volume level, and we took a mains supply from the hotel kitchen instead.

And that's where I think this whole "noise management" thing bothers me slightly. Surely, if the manager is happy with the level you are playing at, and is not receiving complaints from neighbours, etc. then why install a system that says otherwise? If you cannot manage your own volume to a sensible level for all parties, and you can't debate any issues seriously with the manager of the venue (who is generally paying you), then you should just go back to rehearsing in your garage and annoying your own neighbours instead.

Saying that, I do know of someone who bought an apartment directly above an Irish bar in the centre of Manchester, knowing it was also a music venue, and then took them to court to get the music licence revoked. What a tw*t.

[icastle]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1317201296' post='1387841']
A Friday or Saturday night spent checking the venue out is worthwhile.
[/quote]

+1
Myself and\or the most tech savvy guitarist in the band will always visit the venue beforehand.
Not only do we get to meet the venue management beforehand and show that we're working with them to make the night a success, we also get an idea of any technical difficulties we're going to have to overcome and be prepared for them.

Half an hour spent on site a week or so before the gig saves a lot of arguments further down the line.

Edited September 28, 2011 by icastle

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='ironside1966' timestamp='1317210281' post='1388054']
The way is look at is this, the landlord pays you to do a job just like you would pay someone to paint your house. you wouldn't expect them do what they want. you pay them to paint it how you want it.
[/quote]
Would you play your entire set a semi-tone down just because the landlord says so?

Haha you don't have to answer, I'm just f*cking with the flaws in the basic concept of this argument.

I think each situation should be dealt with on an individual basis and a bit of common sense should be used in every situation... especially when some premenstrual band member suggests packing up before you've even finished your set.

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='ironside1966' timestamp='1317210281' post='1388054']
The way is look at is this, the landlord pays you to do a job just like you would pay someone to paint your house. you wouldn't expect them do what they want. you pay them to paint it how you want it.
[/quote]

But you would probably be paying them because they know what they are doing, or know better than you. You tell them what and where but surely you wouldn't tell them how?
A bit of working together would be the best option IMO.

[BottomE]

[quote name='ironside1966' timestamp='1317210281' post='1388054']
The way is look at is this, the landlord pays you to do a job just like you would pay someone to paint your house. you wouldn't expect them do what they want. you pay them to paint it how you want it.
[/quote]

Then he says i don't like you using those brushes and that your ladders are too shiny. I think that some of you do see the world in very black and white tones. Judge each case on its own merits.

[ironside1966]

[size=5][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#333333]Playing a semitone down or what brushers he users is just daft you don't care how he does it just so long has the painter does a good job, respects your property and doesn't P off the neighbours.[/color][/font][/size][color=#333333][size=5][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif] [/font][/size][/color]

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#333333][size=3]All I am saying is the landlord is paying you to entertain his customers and he has a right to expect that you do not upset them or put his business in jeopardy by playing too loud.[/size][/color][/font]
[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#333333][size=3]In my experience what a musician says his acceptable volume and what Joe public says is acceptable volume are poles apart. [/size][/color][/font][color=#333333][/color]

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size="3"][color="#000000"]I[size=5] agree that some landlords are unreasonable with that but there are quite a few musicians and bands that are prima donnas. every sound engineer you talk too meets musicians on a regular who play far too loud and refuse to turn down to the detriment of the sound of the band.[/size][/color][/size][/font]



[color=#333333] [/color]

[color=#333333]if a venues has bands regularly then surly the landlords knows what to expect.[/color]

[Skol303]

Surely the bottom line here is that the landlord/lady is the one writing the paycheck, so for the duration of the gig he/she is both the customer and the "boss".

And ultimately, the customer is always right. Even when you know they're wrong. That's the 'Great Compromise' that governs all business-customer relationships.

If you believe otherwise, then dare I say you either have an inflated ego, a bad business sense or a sufficient fanbase/number of bookings not to care.

But regardless, the customer is always "right", because they are the one paying for the service.

[BottomE]

Its just being practical.

If they don't want the drummer to use his bass drum then they are effectively telling us what brushes we should use (excuse me if the analogy is getting complicated). At this point the talking from the audience is starting to drown out the singer.

The customer stops being the customer when you say you don't want payment and leave so they haven't lost out. We lost out on an evening when we could have been doing something else. Its got nothing to do with egos or things getting thrown out of prams. Its more to do with five people agreeing that someone is being unreasonable and making a decision.