Jazz loses out to P

[Jigster]

i know this has come up before, but was illustrated for me Friday night - saw a band who did two sets - the bass player used a RI Fender jazz in first set (with a pedal board I couldn't really see and a 1x15 combo) - good sound, but I was wanting it to cut thro more.

second set, he used an RI Fender P all the way through, exactly same combo and pedal board, and the P was just PRESENT in the way the jazz wasn't.

To me, Jazzes are sweet things, with so much to offer tonally, but not sure they are able to really exert their authority in a band situ - when we get back gigging next month I know I'll be reaching for my P

[Evil Undead]

I saw a gig last night where the guy used a fender P (very new looking) through both sets. Nice tone, but he totally drowned out everyone else including the singer. His bass was pretty much all I could hear.

Not sure whether it was to do with the bass' presence or just a really half assed sound check, but was just overpowering IMHO

[Jigster]

ah yes, there is always that

[thisnameistaken]

It doesn't really matter what bass you use.

[paul_5]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1161066' date='Mar 13 2011, 09:24 PM']It doesn't really matter what bass you use.[/quote]
Ah well, that takes care of 50% of the topics on BC. The rest being roughly 10% - Chris Wolstenhome's effects setup, 20% bass porn and related GAS, 10% 'Drummer at the wrong gig' posts and 10% knob gags.

Think that's everything covered

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='paul_5' post='1161146' date='Mar 13 2011, 10:36 PM']Ah well, that takes care of 50% of the topics on BC.[/quote]

Heh.

Yeah there are a lot of pointless topics. Reality check: Nobody else cares what bass you use, it really won't make any important difference to a performance. What you play is pretty important (many people choose gear over learning) and the skills of your engineer are pretty important whether that's front-of-house or recording, but the bass you were playing is a long way down the list.

I doubt this will put a dent in the used market though. We're not especially rational people are we.

[ThomBassmonkey]

It's a bit simplistic to say that a P is better than a Jazz, there's so many factors involved.

I love my Sandberg JJ5 (admittedly not a Fender Jazz, basically the same bass though), it sounds brilliant in my (rock) band. Would a P sound better? I get the exact sound in my head and it sounds like that in the context of the other instruments, so a P could only move away from that.

[OzMike]

It depends a lot on the settings of the pickup and tone controls too. With the bridge pickup dialed all the way off and tone down, a Jazz sounds very similar to a P (especially in a live band situation).
edit: spelling

Edited March 14, 2011 by OzMike

[Jigster]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1161286' date='Mar 14 2011, 03:58 AM']It's a bit simplistic to say that a P is better than a Jazz, there's so many factors involved.

I love my Sandberg JJ5 (admittedly not a Fender Jazz, basically the same bass though), it sounds brilliant in my (rock) band. Would a P sound better? I get the exact sound in my head and it sounds like that in the context of the other instruments, so a P could only move away from that.[/quote]

wasn't really implying a P is 'better' per se, I love Jazzes, but rather that the P succeeds more in terms of presence..

[Clarky]

[quote name='Jigster' post='1161376' date='Mar 14 2011, 08:57 AM']wasn't really implying a P is 'better' per se, I love Jazzes, but rather that the P succeeds more in terms of presence..[/quote]
Thats exactly why I am having DiMarzio Model J pickups installed in my Bacchus 62 Jazz - it sounds beautiful but lacks presence in a noisy guitar based band. Hopefully the pickups will have more beef while retaining that Jazz tonality. In non-rock/punk situations, I guess a Jazz bass has more 'room to breathe' and so its lesser presence (than a P) is probably not an issue at all and the tone shines through

[KevB]

This is why I think the series/parallel switch on the S1 jazzes works well. Gives the jazz noticeably more presence in band situations.

[mrtcat]

Got a P & a J and have to say I get heaps of positive comments about the J and some (although slightly less) with the P. Sound check and some good engineering work will make most basses sound ok tho as will technique. P lacks growl in a rock setting IMO but that's not necessarily what everyone is after. P sounds good on pop and motown. Same amp settings won't do for both tho.

Age old discussion about who prefers which coming up which in my eyes shows that both instruments are good it just depends on your personal definition of good bass sound.

[Wil]

It's all in the mids. The way the Jazz is wired, with both pups on there is a slight mid scoop. The P with it's single pup has more mid presence, so without the bassist touching the EQ on his amp then the P probably would have more presence, yes. EQ'd correctly though a J will compete just fine.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1161284' date='Mar 14 2011, 03:36 AM']Yeah there are a lot of pointless topics. Reality check: Nobody else cares what bass you use, it really won't make any important difference to a performance. What you play is pretty important (many people choose gear over learning) and the skills of your engineer are pretty important whether that's front-of-house or recording, but the bass you were playing is a long way down the list.

I doubt this will put a dent in the used market though. We're not especially rational people are we.[/quote]

+1

I don't have the experience to know for sure, but it's always been my feeling that a great musician would be able to coax a great performance out of a 'crap' instrument whereas a poor musician won't be improved by the 'greatest' equipment on the planet.

The world of photography seems to encourage similar debates, especially the constant Canon vs Nikon vs Leica arguments. Great photos have been taken with ALL these cameras (and more) and great music has been made by different makes of basses and amps (and any other range of instruments/equipment you care to name).

People seem to lose sight of the fact that the instrument is just a tool and it takes a craftsman to use one to the maximum effect.

Edited March 14, 2011 by flyfisher

[Musicman20]

Js sound great, but they never sit in a mix and feel like a P.

[Lozz196]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='1161572' date='Mar 14 2011, 11:32 AM']Js sound great, but they never sit in a mix and feel like a P.[/quote]
+1

Exactly how I feel about this.

Whenever I go into a music shop, and there is someone trying out a bass, invariably, if its a Jazz, then I love the sound thats being coaxed from it.

However, whenever I see a bands play, it is always the Precision player whose basslines are both authoratative and prominent in the mix, and usually find that the Jazz players basslines just don`t seem to "be there".

[molan]

I know it's been said about a zillion times before but, after my experiences on a stand at the bass show this weekend, I firmly believe the sound is in the fingers.

There were two basses on our stand that I heard people play again and again. Whilst a few of them had a bought out what I'd call the signature tone of each, they pretty much sounded different in the hands of every player.

Funnily enough about the only thing that sounded the same from all of them was when they launched into the beloved slap fest - near impossible to differentiate between people (apart from the whole 1 guy that actually started playing a nice groove whilst throwing in some slapping stuff!).

The other thing that was surprisig was how differently everyone set the inboard bass tone controls. I kept setting them flat and every time a bass came back they were all over the place. Hardly anyone touched the tone on the amp though.

Just to finish on this - one guy picked up a Matt Garrison 6 string Fodera, soloed the neck Seymour Funcan dual coil pickup, rolled back the treble, boosted the bass a little and dug into a nice funky little groove, all played up around the first 5 frets, sounded just like a P Bass. The next guy went almost the reverse, bridge pickup, cut back some bass an started playing chordal patterns high up the neck - totally, totally different sound and tone - same bass, same amp, different fingers. . .

[wesfinn]

p bass 80% of the time it works everytime..the jazz has got the rest.

[OzMike]

[quote name='molan' post='1161684' date='Mar 14 2011, 02:57 PM']Just to finish on this - one guy picked up a Matt Garrison 6 string Fodera, soloed the neck Seymour Funcan dual coil pickup, rolled back the treble, boosted the bass a little and dug into a nice funky little groove, all played up around the first 5 frets, sounded just like a P Bass. The next guy went almost the reverse, bridge pickup, cut back some bass an started playing chordal patterns high up the neck - totally, totally different sound and tone - same bass, same amp, different fingers. . .[/quote]

And different pickup + tone settings, but ... yeah

[Musicman20]

Agreed its technique etc, but for a good old rock band/heavier music, the low mids of the P bass just seem to fill the mix better.

I think a lot of it is due to how guitarists suck their mids out for that modern heavy Mesa tone, so the P sits in that part!

Ive heard sooo many bands playing Js that sound great, but then get lost once the band kicks in. This is more based on rock/punk bands.

Hence, when I get my J, im using the Tonehammer to 'active' it up. Ill probably slightly favour the neck pickup when balancing it out.

[molan]

[quote name='OzMike' post='1161692' date='Mar 14 2011, 01:06 PM']And different pickup + tone settings, but ... yeah [/quote]

I know what you mean - I guess I was just trying to say that you can get a great tone out of many a bass if you a) have the fingers, and are prepared to play with the tone controls a little.

Maybe the P just works because it only has two tones - treble open or wound right off, none of that pickup switching, active mid boost malarky to fiddle around with, lol.

[EddyGlee]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1161066' date='Mar 13 2011, 09:24 PM']It doesn't really matter what bass you use.[/quote]

+1


[quote name='molan' post='1161684' date='Mar 14 2011, 12:57 PM']I firmly believe the sound is in the fingers.[/quote]

+1

IME your hands and ears are more responsible for what comes out of it!
all Fender's to me (Guitars included) have to be worked to get what you want out of them, guess thats why some people don't like them!

I agree with much of what Billy Sheehan says on this clip @ 2:40 mins.

[xilddx]

I think an awful lot of rubbish spoken about this subject and I agree with TNIT, it doesn't really matter much what bass you use. EQ it.

If I'm talking to you next to a machine that's making a bit of a noise around the 4kHz range at the same level as my speaking voice, you'll struggle to hear me. My options are to speak more like Barry White or more like Joe Pasquale. Or shout.

[mrtcat]

[quote name='EddyGlee' post='1161827' date='Mar 14 2011, 02:50 PM']I agree with much of what Billy Sheehan says on this clip @ 2:40 mins.

[/quote]

You simply can't argue with Billy Sheehan on this. We all need to stop obsessing over gear and just play more!

[chris_b]

[quote name='Jigster' post='1161376' date='Mar 14 2011, 08:57 AM']....wasn't really implying a P is 'better' per se, I love Jazzes, but rather that the P succeeds more in terms of presence....[/quote]
Or the guy you saw just got his sound wrong with the Jazz.

The difference between all basses and making them heard and not and getting a good sound or a bad sound is very small. The difference in what you/we think of the sound is huge.