Gust0o Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 It's a Friday afternoon, what else would you be doing at work? The serial would appear to check out; if you've got a list of additional concerns, then you might consider packaging the lot up and punting the query over to Gibson. You can then respond to the buyer with the outcome. If it's a return, look to hold the money - or have a firm do so - until the item has been returned, and is in your possesion. You can then verify it's genuinely the one you sold, and release funds if happy. I do think the chappy may simply have had bad advice, or an attack of the regret. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysdexia Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 [quote name='icastle' post='1089258' date='Jan 14 2011, 01:01 PM']What were the other reasons he gave that makes him suspect it's a fake?[/quote] Here's the body of his email exactly as I received it. [quote]1 The serial number print is not from the Gibson company, and the serial number its not real. 2 The neck is not a Gibson 3 The body of the guitar is not made of caoba as it should be on a Gibson standard. 4 The humbuckers are not Gibson or even made in USA. It seems to have been to be P90 but seems to be removed. 5 The neck frets are not the original from a Gibson standard. 6 The standard inscription on the head of the neck is not Gibson original – it is a fake copy 7 The shape and the cavities on the body are not shaped with the Gibson standards. 8 The mic cables are not Gibson originals and have a job to seem to be Gibson standards. 9 The selector switch is not original (it’s the same one used for ephiphone) and apart from that its not working. 10 The bridge is not original, and the origin has been awfully removed. 11 The neck shape its not Gibson standard plus the whole neck has been pasted to the body. 12 The GIBSON script is a complete fake, not original. 13 The tensor neck head is not original, it’s not even on the guitar 14 The mark on the 7th fret has been added trying to imitate a Gibson. 15 The capacitors are not originals. 16 The potenciometers are not Gibson. 17 The tap of the body is not proper in size and it is not the original maple from Gibson - even the unions are not proper. The shape is not smooth as a Gibson original should be. 18 The sound of the guitar plugged its awful and completely noisy. The circuits are all fake and not proper. 19 The circuits cover is not original, it’s not even the same material as Gibson. 20 The humbuckers have been scratched to seem old, but they are not from the year when you told me the guitar was made.[/quote] I already know part of this are complete and utter bullshit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysdexia Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 [quote name='Doctor J' post='1089334' date='Jan 14 2011, 01:48 PM']Have you got pictures of the guitar in question, plus can you provide what he suggests what makes it a fake? Even fakes usually have serial numbers, so it's no evidence one way or the other.[/quote] . . . One thing that's certainly helping my confidence that I have done the right thing is a guy I showed the guitar to prior to the sale - he being an expert of sorts in used guitars and he never questioned its authenticity. He would have smelled a rat in an instant from my experience with him. I don't want to tell the buyer to simply go and f*** himself, but I do want to make sure I am as informed as I can be before I challenge the veracity of his claims. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor J Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 (edited) He bought this from you in the UK and now all this crops up now he's back in Argentina? Tell him to sod off. If he had any issues he should have notified you before he exported it. Caveat Emptor. Edit -> Just looking at the pics, it certainly doesn't bear any of the usual signs of forgery that appear on a lot of the Chinese fakes doing the rounds at the moment, for example correct 2 screw truss cover, frets which are finished within the binding, usually the fakes have frets which go over the binding. If it is a fake, it would appear to be a very good one. If this guy has issues they're his problem, I reckon. I call a scammer. Edited January 14, 2011 by Doctor J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysdexia Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 [quote name='essexbasscat' post='1089487' date='Jan 14 2011, 04:17 PM']Watch out for Escrow as well. A friend of mine looked into this. I can't remember the details, but the terms horrified me at the time.[/quote] I've already decided that refund or no, I'm parting with nothing until the guitar is back in my hands so I know it's what I sent and can then have it checked myself. I know this will likely be a major issue what with him being in Argentina. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumnote Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 ask him to send you photos you may find that the guitar he is claiming is fake is not the one you sold him, ask him to identify on the the photos any areas of concern do you have photos of the guitar you sold him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I smell a scam or at best a chancer who's changed his mind! Can you clarify if the guitar was an ebay/paypal sale because if it was then that's a whole different kettle of fish! 'IF' it is an eBay/paypal sale I think that the expectation would be that you would be required to refund once you have the guitar back BUT I am aware that my sister sold something (value £30) on eBay and the buyer claimed it was lost in the post so despite my sis offering a refund as soon as she heard back from RM, paypal refunded the buyer regardless! If paypal are involved I'd be ensuring that they are aware that the buyer is now in another country. Saying all of that, if it isn't ebay/paypal I'd be sitting pretty waiting for the LP to be returned first and there's nothing the guy can do to force you to do otherwise! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spinynorman Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Is it possible this isn't the guy you sold the guitar to? ie, someone hacks his eBay account, finds he bought something with a nice big ticket and tries to get a refund on it (assuming it was eBay). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 (edited) [quote name='neepheid' post='1089307' date='Jan 14 2011, 01:30 PM']The current, sane system began in late 1977. There was a brief attempt at sanity from 1975-77, before then there's not a lot of rhyme and reason to it, serial numbers can mean a few things and you need something like pot codes or body/neck date stamps to make sense of it.[/quote] Ask him to take the neck off! Tricky one this aint it? Some sort of middle man might be the answer. If it were me that had bought it and I was as sure as he is claiming If you offered me a deal where the guitar was sent to a dealer here in the uk and if it turned out fake you would refund me I would say thats fair especially as you could just dissapear instead. Im guessing there was a few quid involved too. Due to the distance like the other said more photos from him with detailed descriptions of whats wrong and an email to Gibson first it might just be he needs the money back for something else even if you do get it back. Sounds like a w***er though so far..... Edited January 14, 2011 by stingrayPete1977 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysdexia Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 [quote name='bumnote' post='1089521' date='Jan 14 2011, 04:48 PM']ask him to send you photos you may find that the guitar he is claiming is fake is not the one you sold him, ask him to identify on the the photos any areas of concern do you have photos of the guitar you sold him?[/quote] Yep - they are further up the thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Burrito Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 It does sound a bit scam like. The pics look pretty legit to me without taking the guitar apart. He lists an awful lot of faults? Surely if it was that bad he'd have picked up on it straight away? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeeCee Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 [quote name='warwickhunt' post='1089542' date='Jan 14 2011, 12:05 PM']I smell a scam or at best a chancer who's changed his mind! Can you clarify if the guitar was an ebay/paypal sale because if it was then that's a whole different kettle of fish! 'IF' it is an eBay/paypal sale I think that the expectation would be that you would be required to refund once you have the guitar back BUT I am aware that my sister sold something (value £30) on eBay and the buyer claimed it was lost in the post so despite my sis offering a refund as soon as she heard back from RM, paypal refunded the buyer regardless! If paypal are involved I'd be ensuring that they are aware that the buyer is now in another country. Saying all of that, if it isn't ebay/paypal I'd be sitting pretty waiting for the LP to be returned first and there's nothing the guy can do to force you to do otherwise![/quote] If it was paid for using Paypal, make sure that you don't keep the money in the account or otherwise carry a balance in the account, else they can take the money without your sayso in the event they decide to go with the buyer should he make a claim. That said, it seems like a chancer to me. He has nothing to lose by filing a dispute with Paypal, but you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MB1 Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 MB1. What are you doing selling Guitars? Sounds like a Scam to me!Refund Nothing till you get the guitar back, and this proves to be the guitar you sold! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robocorpse Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 [quote name='Lysdexia' post='1089515' date='Jan 14 2011, 04:45 PM'][/quote] This looks wrong. The logo should have open B and O. This is a 1968-76 logo on an 85 head. Also, the neck joint looks well suspect where the neck binding and body binding meet. The TRC definitely looks wrong. Serial number should be stamped into the wood, not printed. O/P jack screws look wrong. I have a nasty feeling about this, although its a bloody convincing one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Yes I can see the neck joint now you say too, looks almost photo shopped and to see the imperfection in the wood on a photo viewed on my iPod is not so good! I'm retracting my earlier w***er statement for now. Where did it come from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soliloquy Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Johnston' post='1089614' date='Jan 14 2011, 06:06 PM']Ah but these days I think Paypal like to have a back up source a credit card or account. You cannot delete the details and close the account until so many days after your last transaction.[/quote] I have a debit card from an account that I don't keep money in on my Paypal account. I don't trust people, if someone lodges a dispute then Paypal will automatically remove money from your account and hold onto it until the matter is sorted out. They can't do that to me . This highlights the problems with Ebay's policy of holding onto money from some sales until positive feedback is left. Edited January 14, 2011 by Soliloquy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I seem to remember a mate of mine telling me that there were some amazing fake LPs coming out of China a few years back. Not saying that this is one of them, as I don`t have enough knowledge about LPs to state genuine or not, but there is always the risk that the buyer also knows about these, and is trying their luck based upon these fakes, stating a genuine LP is one of the fakes. I think in this case getting the guitar back (and make sure it is the one you sold that you get back) is the only way to clear it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelk27 Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Hypothesising, of course, but it's entirely possible that the guitar has been damaged in transit, between his residence in the UK and his home in the Argentine. Admittedly, that a fraud of some species is being attempted is also a highly possible scenario. Request that he provides you with detailed digital photographs, with embedded time and date signatures, showing all the points he is asserting are at issue. Indicate to him that you are not obliged to issue a refund until the item is returned to you, that no refund will be considered until that time, and that funds in prospect of any full or partial refund will not be entrusted to escrow. Clearly indicate that you will have the guitar inspected by an authorised Gibson reseller in the UK, and provide him with that reseller's accreditations. (On that point, my understanding is that Guitar Guitar is Scotland's only authorised main dealer, but you may with to confirm this information with the UK distributor for Gibson products.) Clearly state that he should send the guitar to you securely packaged, using a reputable courier, and appropriately insured, and that you will not accept liable for any loss of damage to the guitar while in transit. Clearly state that you are not liable for his additional carriage costs to transport the guitar from the Argentine to the UK, and that his liability for said expenses extends to all importation fees, custom's fees, and any taxes. Clearly state that should the guitar be indentified as a genuine by the appointed authorised reseller, or, in the alternative, Gibson's appointed distributor in the UK, that all property in the guitar remains his, and that return of the guitar to him in the Argentine will be at his expense, all courier and carriage costs, including fees and taxes, to be paid by him before dispatch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merello Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Lysdexia' post='1089235' date='Jan 14 2011, 12:44 PM']Hi Guys, I'll cut a long story short here - in December last year I sold what I believed to be a genuine Gibson Les Paul. The buyer has now come back to me and is claiming the serial is a fake. Before I refund his money and take back possession of the guitar I'd like to check as best I can that he is at least, in turn, being honest with me. The serial number in question is as follow: 80645481 Is there anyway to learn conclusively if this is indeed the genuine article or a fake as he claims? In the email I received, he goes on to list a number issues with the guitar suggesting that the serial number is far being the only thing fake about it. Any information about the number and other things to watch for would be very helpful indeed. Not least because I sent the guitar to the guy in London and he has now returned to Argentina - I'm assuming he would like me to refund his money to a bank in Argentina and then he will ship the guitar to me. Should I use an escrow service? Jings - my head is done in! Many thanks - Andy.[/quote] pm me his name cos I had a lot of trouble last year from an Argentinian in London who was leaving soon and could you do this, that etc until I told him to either pay or f*** off. He chose the latter. ps - He may have swapped your genuine Gibbo for a fake - that way he gets the guitar for nothing other than the price of a fake. Edited January 14, 2011 by merello Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 [quote name='the_skezz' post='1089502' date='Jan 14 2011, 04:31 PM']Is it sad that I've spent the last ten minutes seeing how far into the future I can go with that? [/quote] Yes. Very. How far did you get? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysdexia Posted January 15, 2011 Author Share Posted January 15, 2011 [quote name='BurritoBass' post='1089589' date='Jan 14 2011, 05:49 PM']It does sound a bit scam like. The pics look pretty legit to me without taking the guitar apart. He lists an awful lot of faults? Surely if it was that bad he'd have picked up on it straight away?[/quote] I've been playing since the mid-late seventies and owned hundreds of guitars and basses. I bought the guitar and was happy with it - I'm as sure as I can be that I would have noticed any of the crap he lists before I parted with my own money for it. Apart from the inventions of course - point 13 in his wish list - the unauthentic part that isn't even there. It will be worth nothing to this guy of course, but I have plenty of folk on basschat who would vouch for me not doing the dirty. My ebay rating is 100% buying and selling. If I'm wrong I'll do the right thing by the guy, if, as I strongly suspect, he's at it then the fat lady is getting her throat cut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 (edited) [quote name='noelk27' post='1089695' date='Jan 14 2011, 07:07 PM']Indicate to him that you are not obliged to issue a refund until the item is returned to you, that no refund will be considered until that time, and that funds in prospect of any full or partial refund will not be entrusted to escrow.[/quote] Absolutely +1. Escrow scams are becoming a common fraud tool. I could set up a convincing looking Escrow service and persuade you to use it 'as a safeguard for you'. I might try a little social conditioning and recommend one Escrow service (a legitimate one) and then quickly tell you afterwards that I've heard 'bad things about it' and one of my mates has recommended a much better one with lower charges... (mine!) Once I have your money I close it down and walk off with your cash. What are you going to do about it? You're on the other side of the world, don't speak Argentinian and would be unlikely to persuade Argentinian law officers to take an interest in your story... Edited January 15, 2011 by icastle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tino Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 [quote name='Lysdexia' post='1089235' date='Jan 14 2011, 12:44 PM']Hi Guys, I'll cut a long story short here - in December last year I sold what I believed to be a genuine Gibson Les Paul. The buyer has now come back to me and is claiming the serial is a fake. Before I refund his money and take back possession of the guitar I'd like to check as best I can that he is at least, in turn, being honest with me. The serial number in question is as follow: 80645481 Is there anyway to learn conclusively if this is indeed the genuine article or a fake as he claims? In the email I received, he goes on to list a number issues with the guitar suggesting that the serial number is far being the only thing fake about it. Any information about the number and other things to watch for would be very helpful indeed. Not least because I sent the guitar to the guy in London and he has now returned to Argentina - I'm assuming he would like me to refund his money to a bank in Argentina and then he will ship the guitar to me. Should I use an escrow service? Jings - my head is done in! Many thanks - Andy.[/quote] Gibson are notorious for Seial number issues and the guitar dater project is inconclusive,it does not get all serial numbers or formats correct. Dont worry If you cannot prove conclusively that it is a genuine Gibson it is really down to him to prove it is not,however if you want to be a fair fella. I would tell the chap to return it and once received you will refund his payment less shipping. If its any use I have a 100% genuine 1979 LP custom the serial number as with many Gibsons is not recognised on The GDP but confirmation of it authenticty was made available by Gibson by email along with an explanation of why odd serial numbers appeared so regularly at certain points in time. DONT PAY UNTIL YOU RECEIVE YOUR GOODS BACK IN THE SAME CONDITION I know a lad that sold a 1975 Fender tele on ebay,the buyer opened a case stating it was not in fact a 75 but a later guitar.the guitar was returned BUT it was NOT the guitar that was in the auction,remarkably similar in looks but NOT the item sold,fortunately the pics held on his PC showed that the serial number plate was entirely different to the one sold(this picture was not in the auction pics put up)But the best evidence was found on Gumtree where the buyer had the original tele up for sale along with a phone number that was also registered to the buyers Ebay account and Paypal details. Dont be hasty and Dont give YOUR money away T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimBobTTD Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 I would go on the mylespaul.com forum and post about it there. There are people on that forum that truly are experts - they will be able to tell you whether it is fake or not or perhaps even why it is genuine but the buyer thinks it's fake etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robocorpse Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 [quote name='Johnston' post='1089655' date='Jan 14 2011, 06:40 PM']do you not mean a closed B and O ??[/quote] Yes, thats what I meant, See what I mean though, that looked dodgy to me pretty much immediately. Also, the "Les Paul" silkscreening is too light, and the "MODEL" is slightly offset to the right. TRC sides are too rounded with not enough white showing, and "Standard" is too fat. Also, shouldn't an '85 LP have a fibre headstock veneer? I swear I can see woodgrain under the clearcoat... Buttons look too white, but thats probably the lighting/photoshopping Are those photos you posted yours or his? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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