"Core Tone" isn't very important in your bass.

[LukeFRC]

I feel the need to point out that James Jamerson didn't use a pick. Thank you, got that of my chest.


Until recently i had a line6 bass pod xt live. It was good, but I sold it as live I could never get it to sound right. I used it as a pre-amp into a few different power amps and something about it meant it didn't seem to respond to my playing quite how I wanted it too.
I think in an ideal world digital works. You plug your bass into a box with pedals to set what you want, this goes into the sound desk. perhaps some kind of foldback can go into the unit to give you a mixed signal for a monitor or headphones....
but i would replace the amp with a laptop to control the thing, to see what the sound was doing and knowledgeably control it... but then what is the difference between a bass and any other midi controller? surely even the bass player could be modeled?

As it is I bought two basses that I could plug straight into the sound desk with DI if I needed and they would sound good.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='silddx' post='735433' date='Feb 4 2010, 07:37 PM']Old Holborn and green Rizla?[/quote]

Green Rizlas just make sense, but Old Holborn is foul, smells like my dad.

[quote name='Johnston' post='735395' date='Feb 4 2010, 06:49 PM']I done a thing a few years ago for a blues band. For The first nights practice I was told there was an amp, it was a wee roland cube and it was crap. I plugged everything in as usual including a wee zoom 506 pedal I used as a tuner, I went straight through it nothing added. At the end of the night I was told 'they weren't really a band that used pedals'. The next nights practice I took my own amp this time I unplugged the 506 and went straight to the amp. I was told 'thats far better alot more natural'. The only difference was in the amp !!![/quote]

I had a guitarist recently complain that because I had pedals in my signal chain my bass didn't sound bassy enough. At the time of the complaint my bass was going through one (switched off, buffered) mixer pedal and (ironically) a low-pass filter. The guitarist put it down to signal degradation because there were some other pedals nearby, which he assumed were involved in some way. I think he's looking for a bassist at the moment if anyone's interested.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='silddx' post='735432' date='Feb 4 2010, 07:36 PM']Ah, well now, there's a lot of history to the use of the pineapple with ham, the particular enzymes in it fights bacteria and preserves such things as ham, especially on long 18th century sea journeys to places like Hawaii.[/quote]
Bilge. The place just below where they kept the pineapples.

It is a matter of incontrovertible fact that [i]every[/i] pineapple in the world comes [i]from[/i] Hawaii. Hence, "long 18th century sea journeys [b]to[/b] places like Hawaii" would be pineapple-free. More likely, ships on "long 18th century sea journeys [b]from[/b] places like Hawaii" would be the ones with pineapples.

On arrival in Blighty, these pineapples would then be bartered for, say, sprouts, cabbages or coconuts, which would then be used on the return journey [b]to[/b] Hawaii.

I can safely say that few (if any) ships carried pineapples to Hawaii in the 18th century. Sprouts, yes. Pineapples - never. Or perhaps. But then they would be [i]returning[/i] to Hawaii, which is entirely different.

It really boils my piss to a mile-high plume of steam when people get simple historical facts wrong. It's a feckless betrayal of Britain's impressionable youth.

My father, Sol Hoopii, would be spinning in his grave. As he never ceased to remind me in his twilight years:

[quote]"Tone is what you hear. Sometimes it's good. Sometimes you know it's good. These are two different things. Can I have a pineapple?"[/quote]

Edited February 4, 2010 by skankdelvar

[TimR]

Absolutely. Ham and Cabbage or Ham and Sprout Pizzas for me from now on then.

[xilddx]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='735473' date='Feb 4 2010, 08:15 PM']Bilge. The place just below where they kept the pineapples.

It is a matter of incontrovertible fact that [i]every[/i] pineapple in the world comes [i]from[/i] Hawaii. Hence, "long 18th century sea journeys [b]to[/b] places like Hawaii" would be pineapple-free. More likely, ships on "long 18th century sea journeys [b]from[/b] places like Hawaii" would be the ones with pineapples.

On arrival in Blighty, these pineapples would then be bartered for, say, sprouts, cabbages or coconuts, which would then be used on the return journey [b]to[/b] Hawaii.

I can safely say that few (if any) ships carried pineapples to Hawaii in the 18th century. Sprouts, yes. Pineapples - never. Or perhaps. But then they would be [i]returning[/i] to Hawaii, which is entirely different.

It really boils my piss to a mile-high plume of steam when people get simple historical facts wrong. It's a feckless betrayal of Britain's impressionable youth.

My father, Sol Hoopii, would be spinning in his grave. As he never ceased to remind me in his twilight years:[/quote]


The usual brilliance!

[thodrik]

Must say I've enjoyed reading this read. However it has confused me to the point that I'm not sure what 'core tone' is anymore!

I prefer to think that tone is in your brain more than it is in your fingers as your brain controls your fingers (alcohol sometimes has a role too).

That said I have three basses, all with maple fingerboards, which all sound vastly different acoustically and even more different when plugged in. No matter how hard I try, I can't really make my P-bass sound like a Vigier. I still sound like me when playing both of these basses. So I guess 'core tone' is provided by the player in a way.

each bass I tend to get a get a sound I can work with and leave it at that. I don't really change settings between songs, mostly because I'm lazy, partly because I'm happy with the sound I have and partly because I don't think anybody would care if bumped the mids at 500Hz for a certain song or used a pod to change my amp from a GK to an Ampeg!

Most people at a gig would probably notice that the basses looked different before they would notice that they sound different. In fact most people probably wouldn't care or notice at all.

I must say I've never been that bothered by digital processing, plug ins and the like. I have used them before and will again but there really is no substitute for a good amp, good cab and somebody that knows how to mic things up properly in a studio. This does take time though and for a quick recording a pod or ampeg plug-in thing is pretty cool.

We could all get by ditching our amps and just gig with DI boxes and in-ear monitors. I just think that too much technology ends up taking some of the fun out of playing and recording music, at least for me. I just want to get a good bass, a good amp and play loud.

I probably completely missed the point of the thread and for that I'm sorry!

[xilddx]

[quote name='thodrik' post='735487' date='Feb 4 2010, 08:30 PM']I don't think anybody would care if bumped the mids at 500Hz for a certain song or used a pod to change my amp from a GK to an Ampeg![/quote]

So get a POD and save your money and your lumbar region for drinking and dancing! Also, the space your amp used to take and the money you have saved makes a sports car much more viable

[Marvin]

Having read through the entire thread i am totally perplexed.

Back to the beginning then, if I plug my Ibby into my amp and then the cheap p-bass copy my drummer has into the same amp do they sound the same. No, they don't, they are completely different. However that may be complicated by the fact the Ibby is active and the p-bass passive. So what happens when I put them through my zoom. Anything I want really (obviously not as much as a POD but still). It may not be identical to say a Trace Elliot sound but it's an OK approximation and if you're playing live who's going to know?

I remember being at a gig where my mate's band were top of the bill, and he also supplied the P.A. I was stood behind the control desk with him asking dumb questions. At the time he had a Stingray going through an Ampeg. Sounded great. but when I saw him a few months later he had a Trace Elliot and had changed his bass (I can't remember what it was mainly because I probably didn't like it) but still sounded the same. I don't know what that says really but if I could DI from a box of tricks into the PA and forego lugging around cabs and amps and all the sh1t that goes with it I'd certainly give a go.


All I do know is Skanky deserves a prize for having a truly brilliant and creative mind.

[thodrik]

[quote name='silddx' post='735498' date='Feb 4 2010, 08:42 PM']So get a POD and save your money and your lumbar region for drinking and dancing! Also, the space your amp used to take and the money you have saved makes a sports car much more viable [/quote]

Well, I had a POD and it didn't do EBS Fafner! I used a POD once at a gig and had a few issues, I'm just more comfortable with an amp and cab set-up, plus some of the smaller venues have minimal if any decent PA set up, so I need some kind of amp anyway for a pod to go through. Given I'm happy with my amp, the POD or a sansamp are an extra expense I don't need.

If I ever hit the big time though I'm pretty sure it would lead to me running through a pod with in-ear monitors with a stacks of empty speaker cabs behind me! Just now I'm content with being told to turn down. Also, lugging the stuff about is pretty much my only exercise...

Given the way I drive a sports car might not be the best plan. I've been told that my driving is somehow even worse than my dancing. My drinking though is pretty good!

[xilddx]

[quote name='Sibob' post='735285' date='Feb 4 2010, 05:17 PM']Silddx, I'm playing in Ealing on 12th Feb if you're about!

Si[/quote]
I am, as it happens, mate!

Anyone else up for it? Happy Jack?

Where and when, Si?

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='silddx' post='735519' date='Feb 4 2010, 09:19 PM']I am, as it happens, mate!

Anyone else up for it? Happy Jack?

Where and when, Si?[/quote]

I'm up for that.

Which band is this, Si? Re-Cover or First Signs Of Frost?

[xilddx]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='735529' date='Feb 4 2010, 09:32 PM']I'm up for that.

Which band is this, Si? Re-Cover or First Signs Of Frost?[/quote]
Excellent!

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='Marvin' post='735505' date='Feb 4 2010, 08:57 PM']Back to the beginning then, if I plug my Ibby into my amp and then the cheap p-bass copy my drummer has into the same amp do they sound the same. No, they don't, they are completely different. However that may be complicated by the fact the Ibby is active and the p-bass passive. So what happens when I put them through my zoom. Anything I want really (obviously not as much as a POD but still). It may not be identical to say a Trace Elliot sound but it's an OK approximation and if you're playing live who's going to know?[/quote]

I usually have five basses in the rack next to me. I practise (at home) by running them through a Bass Buddy with the EQ completely flat, so what I'm hearing is THE ACTUAL BASS as near as makes no difference.

They all sound different. Not necessarily a lot different, but you'd need to be deaf to fail to hear the difference between (let's keep this really obvious) a 1974 Fender Precision and a 1974 Fender Jazz.

But I don't think that's Nigel's original point.

By the time I've run any of those five basses through a couple of pedals, an amp, a cab, and out into a typical pub, there's precious little to choose between them.

I routinely record my band's gigs on a Zoom H4. Listening to the recordings now, I can hear myself tweaking the sound for different tracks, but I couldn't honestly tell you which bass I was playing on each recording.

[51m0n]

[quote name='bigjohn' post='735347' date='Feb 4 2010, 06:12 PM']Aye, to be honest, no-ones right or wrong when it comes to what they think they can hear... [/quote]

At the point we're getting to its highly subjective I agree


[quote name='bigjohn' post='735347' date='Feb 4 2010, 06:12 PM']It's a bit tinny. I prefer my Sansui [/quote]

I know, I had to get three and even then I couldnt get the volume and tone I hoped for out of my ipod dock

[quote name='bigjohn' post='735347' date='Feb 4 2010, 06:12 PM']I didn't think it was measurable at all. In that you can measure the difference between two different wires, but the wire wouldn't be able to tell you which one was $8000 a meter. Didn't this audiophile speaker wire thing start off as a con with some bankrupt stock? I'm sure I read that somewhere.[/quote]

Oh you can definitely measure it - if you have accurate enough equipment - but there is no way you could hear anything even orders of magnitude greater in difference.

My choice of the word immeasurable earlier was very poor, its imperceptible but very measurable.

[quote name='bigjohn' post='735347' date='Feb 4 2010, 06:12 PM']I'm still not convinced. Ok - I'm not suggesting that I can tell if someone else is playing through whatever amps. However, I find, that I prefer playing through valve amps... I find it easier to EQ a pleasant tone to my ears. I've yet to hear myself play through a model which sounds like I know I get valve amps to sound like.[/quote]

Is that the fault of the model, or the interface to it, or the user though?

I'm certainly not trying to say modelling is the answer to everyone's tonal needs, but I really do think it shouldn't be written off as a dead end for tone.

[quote name='bigjohn' post='735347' date='Feb 4 2010, 06:12 PM']A better test would be to get the whole control group to play into two amps, one valve, one solid state modeled on the valve amp and see if they could tell the difference themselves, let them play with the EQ not knowing which one was which.[/quote]

If you could make the physical interface to each amp identical it would be a brilliant test - I agree!

My signal chain doesn't have any tubes in it at all, and I'm not after a tube warmth sound primarily at all, but I can produce some lovely warm tones if I want to. With my rig I hardly have to touch the eq ever, really, but I do if the room needs it, or a certain musical situation demands I move away from my starting point. I guess I just love the sound of my rig. Lucky me

I have no amp or cab GAS at all, and other than a fretless Roscoe 5 string (which isnt ever going to happen) I have no bass GAS either. Woot!

I struggle when I rehearse without my full rig, I sometimes end up plugging my rack into an older Hartke 410, and it just sucks so bad. Its dull and lifeless and has no bass extension, it is really insensitive, and 8 ohm, it is the very worst cab I've ever had the misfortune to use. I can, however, with heavy eq-ing , get a usable sound out of it. But it just goes to show that the speaker is the biggest point of failure, as transducers go they just aren't that great, add to that a poorly designed cab, or a less than perfectly designed cab, and you can guarantee that even a serious bass with a serious amp and compressor is going to sound less than it should.

[ped]

Very interesting discussion chaps.

It is something I have thought about a lot myself. I was lucky to find 'my' bass a while ago, one that primarily 'felt' right, the action/relief was spot on (and hasn't been touched since I got it) and of the same importance it sounds, to me, just right.

From this 'comfortable' launchpad I was then able to delve into researching and trying various rigs and processors to expand my range of sounds. You must understand that 99% of the time when recording I am DI'd straight to the desk, and still am, so this experiment was from a purely recreational standpoint.

I found out that weather I played through a desk, a Mesa 400+/1516BE rig, a Hartke 3500 rig, an SVT, a Trace Elliot V4 rig, a poweramp and pod rig, an in ear rig, a DI box, an SWR redhead, a Peavey Firebass, whatever it was, I sounded the same, my bass always came through with that velvety graphite clear punchy sound.

The Pod was great fun and it enabled me to emulate different amplifiers, which was great fun and also produced some cool synths. However, i found no matter what I did, I simply couldn't create another bass sound convincingly, because one thing I couldn't do was alter the way the pickups interpreted the string movement. You simply can't get a jazz bass sound from a stingray. You can EQ it and mess about with it and it might sound less like a ray, but it won't sound much like a jazz (and if anyone has a clip demonstrating the contrary I would love to see it, because maybe someone can, but I couldn't!)

...Enter the Vbass (or VB99) and associated GK pickup (as mentioned earlier - the GK2B or GK3B or even, like I now FINALLY have installed, the internal system). Now I can emulate amplifier sounds, but crucially, I can 'move' the 'pickups' on the bass. Each string is processed individually and the brain knows exactly how long the strings speaking length is. I can do a Jazz bass, a musicmam, all sorts, with extreme accuracy, because I am altering the one thing that nothing else can. I'm not changing the EQ at all, I'm moving the 'pickups' and fundamentally changing the characteristics of the sound. It's a really great tool to have if you like having the ONE bass, but having access to the classics too - I never really found a P or J that I was fully happy with in terms of comfort, so now I have it all on my fave bass.

I know I have said this before but I really think it is a criminally underrated piece of equipment which has opened up so many doors for me. It's a whole new way of looking at the issue of emulating other sounds. That said, you can also design your own basses by choosing where the pickups go for each string. Its amazingly complicated but the possibilities are endless, and, more importantly, sound incredible. I sold everything else I had as a result.

Still, 99% of the time I'm playing with everything bypassed using my natural magnetic pickup sound into a poweramp, so I value both extremes - 100% natural and clean, and 100% digital. They both work for me and both have the potential to sound perfect. Unlike the knob holding the bass. I need a V-me.

ped

[Marvin]

I feel so inadequate sometimes.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Marvin' post='735576' date='Feb 4 2010, 10:12 PM']I feel so inadequate sometimes. [/quote]
Don't mate, music is a purely individual set of choices.

BTW, wasn't slagging your Ibby off earlier

[51m0n]

Just for the record, when I record, I normally go straight into a Joe Meek twinQ, and use its lovely eq and compressor.

The sound just blows me away. Its just brilliant.

If I were ever to get another rig, it would be an IP112ER stack, and a Joe Meek oneQ preamp. Absolute tone nirvana....

Edited February 4, 2010 by 51m0n

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='51m0n' post='735607' date='Feb 4 2010, 10:45 PM']Just for the record, when I record, I normally ...[/quote]

Wait. Run that bit by me again?

[Cat Burrito]

Wow, great thread! I can certainly see a lot of validity in the original thread. I've always argued looks are key & I fully agree that most non musicians don't really notice tone.

For me tone has been more of a quest in my later playing days. Initially it was about the image, then it became about playability and the tone came later. Perhaps because I got the other things sorted? However right now I'm certainly having a lot of fun on my tone quest

[MythSte]

I might design an amp called "Core Tone". It'll have 1000 watts, a volume knob and Maybe a DI out.

Minimalist.

Really!

[Jerry_B]

I like a bit of both. Not that I'd call it 'tone' as such. It'd be something I'd expect along with 'whoomf' and 'chunk'. And I'd say that non-musicians can still appreciate it. After all, to a certain extent someone else's sound probably drew us to playing the bass in the first place. As for looks, that's a personal option - mind you, there are alot of popular basses makes out there that I think are either dull or ugly, from a design point of view.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Jerry_B' post='735650' date='Feb 4 2010, 11:28 PM']I like a bit of both. Not that I'd call it 'tone' as such. It'd be something I'd expect along with 'whoomf' and 'chunk'. And I'd say that non-musicians can still appreciate it. After all, to a certain extent someone else's sound probably drew us to playing the bass in the first place.[/quote]

Is it the bass "tone" in and of itself or the space it occupies in the music though? Most of the time you can't even tell what the bass would sound like in isolation, yet we tend to worry about it. I've found lately that I rarely need anything above 500hz in my sound, 1k if I'm feeling modern! I doubt anyone notices that a huge chunk of my sound is missing - I certainly don't.

[ped]

I doubt many of us really mind what the audience think, though. We are nerds and as such like to get our sound the way we like it, regardless of how the ignorant public feel. I don't do it for anyone other than myself. It's the same with anything, really. I almost like the fact that its something only I appreciate!

[Cat Burrito]

Very true Ped