"Core Tone" isn't very important in your bass.

[Sibob]

[quote name='silddx' post='735102' date='Feb 4 2010, 02:53 PM']Is "your sound" appropriate in all situations you need it to be?

Would I be able to recognise your sound?[/quote]

Obviously you have to cater for the musical situation that you're in at any given time. But lets face it, there isn't a great deal of deviation usually, a tweat of EQ here, some subtle chorus there. I have a basic, 'core tone' that I'm very happy with and I can build and embellish on that if necessary. If you have a bass that, at it's most unaffected, sounds completely different to what you hear in your head, you're just adding sounds on top of bad sounds...polishing a turd if you like. Then a pedal dies mid-gig and you're back to horrible tone.

I'm certainly not saying you're wrong, I just couldn't gig like that
Oh and I do think that not many people have a recognisable 'sound', it's how they as a player utilises that sound, the marriage of their fingers and their tone.

Si

[bigjohn]

[quote name='silddx' post='735099' date='Feb 4 2010, 02:50 PM']But if they are reproducing a Pixie Lott CD and the associated appalling mastering, or Vapour Trails by RUSH for that matter, I'm going to be really pissed off I spent £4,375 for my HiFi.[/quote]

£4,375 is a bit cheapskate


Having a bass with a crap tone at one end of your chain is the same thing as Pixie Lott innit?

Or are you saying that whatever tone you have in the first place is lost as you effect it... so what's the point of it in the first place?

[cheddatom]

"tone is in the fingers" - lol, yeh, if you have a boring tone.

[xilddx]

[quote name='bigjohn' post='735114' date='Feb 4 2010, 03:10 PM']£4,375 is a bit cheapskate


Having a bass with a crap tone at one end of your chain is the same thing as Pixie Lott innit?

Or are you saying that whatever tone you have in the first place is lost as you effect it... so what's the point of it in the first place?[/quote]
Not many basses have a "crap" tone though do they? Unless you use a Satellite or something, the bass tone is going to be usable.

[bigjohn]

[quote name='Sibob' post='735109' date='Feb 4 2010, 03:03 PM']Obviously you have to cater for the musical situation that you're in at any given time. But lets face it, there isn't a great deal of deviation usually, a tweat of EQ here, some subtle chorus there. I have a basic, 'core tone' that I'm very happy with and I can build and embellish on that if necessary. If you have a bass that, at it's most unaffected, sounds completely different to what you hear in your head, you're just adding sounds on top of bad sounds...polishing a turd if you like. Then a pedal dies mid-gig and you're back to horrible tone.[/quote]


Bang on for me too. I like my EQ relatively flat. I can then EQ to whatever room I'm in. I've spent ages getting together gear that to my ears, sounds like I want it to without having to EQ it. I don't want an amp "that sounds great if you boost this or that"... I want it to sound great flat. I want a bass that sounds good when it's not even plugged in and I want pickups that help me transfer that tone into my amp.

And I wouldn't say my tone is "boring"

I agree with what Mythste said earlier though... I seem to be able (or that I am only able) to make most gear sound like I'm playing it.

[bigjohn]

[quote name='silddx' post='735129' date='Feb 4 2010, 03:20 PM']Not many basses have a "crap" tone though do they? Unless you use a Satellite or something, the bass tone is going to be usable.[/quote]


A Pixie Lott CD is "usable" through a hi-fi though.

[Adrenochrome]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='735098' date='Feb 4 2010, 02:48 PM']If you're lucky you won't be reduced to a boomy sub-bass sludge that ruins the sound of the rest of the band. Anything more than that is a bonus.[/quote]

Ha ha, this happened on Sunday. Our drummer 'does' our sound [because no one else can work the aniquated thing], and when I stepped out front all I had was a muddy 'whump' noise when I played my bass. Good grief. In the end I managed to get enough mids re-instated to make it bearable.

[xilddx]

[quote name='bigjohn' post='735134' date='Feb 4 2010, 03:25 PM']A Pixie Lott CD is "usable" through a hi-fi though.[/quote]
Point taken.

[xilddx]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='735098' date='Feb 4 2010, 02:48 PM']Imagine saying to the sound guy in some pub somewhere that you can't hear the inherent brightness and bite of your bespoke bass's AAAAA maple top in his mix. [/quote]

[RussFM]

Agreed. I get a better core tone out of my Jazz, but I pretty much only play my Spector now, because the neck and body are more comfortable. They're both active, and I get a tone I'm happy with from both basses through my Tecamp. Although saying that, the best tone I had recently was a gig where I didn't take my amp and left it entirely up to the soundman!

[cheddatom]

[quote name='bigjohn' post='735133' date='Feb 4 2010, 03:24 PM']Bang on for me too. I like my EQ relatively flat. I can then EQ to whatever room I'm in. I've spent ages getting together gear that to my ears, sounds like I want it to without having to EQ it. I don't want an amp "that sounds great if you boost this or that"... I want it to sound great flat. I want a bass that sounds good when it's not even plugged in and I want pickups that help me transfer that tone into my amp.

And I wouldn't say my tone is "boring"

I agree with what Mythste said earlier though... I seem to be able (or that I am only able) to make most gear sound like I'm playing it.[/quote]

It seems you're contradicting yourself a little? You spent ages finding the right gear, but you can get your sound with any old gear!

Playing is distinctive, the style of a player, the way they play. Tone is a seperate thing. So, while I might be able to tell that it's you playing through my 10 distortion pedals and bi-amp rig, it'll still sound like my tone.

[derrenleepoole]

Tone woods I believe are a clever marketing gimmick. How many high end basses have lost of nice tone woods, but also slap on super high end eq and preamp systems and pickups? While different woods do undoubtedly affect tone, it's all too often a combination of 1) your technique 2) electronics 3) pickups 4) woods - in that order!

Comfort and playability are as much a product of good and proper technique, as much as it is good bass design.

The looks of the bass are only important to those who care about such things. And I do ;-p You can't beat a really nice patina on natural wood.

Reliability is a tricky one, because as experience tells us, higher end well made gear should last a long time. But many cheaper end instruments, particularly vintage ones, can out last many newer basses.

Digital is the answer? Not sure about that one. A good bass will always amplify well, and a really good amp will not have to work as hard to deliver 'that' tone - which should be in the bass in the first place. A poor bass, no matter how good the digital amp will probably still sound poor - or at least heavily processed with a digital setup. I'm not against digital though, the TC Electronics head is very impressive.

[SteveK]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='735118' date='Feb 4 2010, 03:11 PM']"tone is in the fingers" - lol, yeh, if you have a boring tone.[/quote]
Assuming that we all understand that "the fingers" are connected to our brain/soul then I would agree, tone/sound is in the fingers.
Give Jeck Beck any guitar, he will still sound like Jeff Beck.
If you gave John Entwistle any bass, he would still have sounded like John Entwistle.


[quote]"Core Tone" isn't very important in your bass., Reliability, Comfort, Playability and Looks are more important[/quote]
I would generally agree with that...

However, we are artists, and artists are sensitive, delicate flowers, and as such have to feel totally happy with every micro nuance of our sound, otherwise [size=2][b]we cant fu**in' perform...[/b][/size]
...can we?

EDIT:
Having said all the above, I am attempting to buy a Stingray 5, IMO it's an ugly mother, but I like the sound .
I say "attempting" to buy, the retailer is giving me the serious "runaround" .

Edited February 4, 2010 by SteveK

[bigjohn]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='735143' date='Feb 4 2010, 03:34 PM']It seems you're contradicting yourself a little? You spent ages finding the right gear, but you can get your sound with any old gear!

Playing is distinctive, the style of a player, the way they play. [b]Tone is a seperate thing[/b]. So, while I might be able to tell that it's you playing through my 10 distortion pedals and bi-amp rig, it'll still sound like my tone.[/quote]


It's not entirely though is it. Tone is also generated by playing style. Give Flea James Jameson's bass and rig, and ask him to play Higher Ground. It wouldn't sound like Jameson's tone.


And I spent ages getting the right gear so I find it easy to sound like I want to. The other way round is sounding vaguely like I want to sound anyway because of my playing style despite the gear. Not contradictory at all

Edited February 4, 2010 by bigjohn

[xilddx]

[quote name='SteveK' post='735145' date='Feb 4 2010, 03:36 PM']However, we are artists, and artists are sensitive, delicate flowers, and as such have to feel totally happy with every micro nuance of our sound, otherwise [size=2][b]we cant fu**in' perform...[/b][/size]
...can we?[/quote]
That, in essence, is the core tone of my point It is media and manufacturer bullshit and player insecurity, mostly, that dictates buying habits. It creates a sustainable industry. You might think your set up is perfect but if you read enough magazines and reviews and get on the forums someone at some point will change your mind and you'll have to try something out.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='bigjohn' post='735155' date='Feb 4 2010, 03:46 PM']It's not entirely though is it. Tone is also generated by playing style. Give Flea James Jameson's bass and rig, and ask him to play Higher Ground. It wouldn't sound like Jameson's tone.


And I spent ages getting the right gear so I find it easy to sound like I want to. The other way round is sounding vaguely like I want to sound anyway because of my playing style despite the gear. Not contradictory at all [/quote]

OK, not entirely seperate. Slapping, picking, long nails or short, hard or soft attack, finger position. All these things will affect tone, but to a subtle degree, which is why I say if ALL of your tone is in your fingers, you must have a boring tone! That's just my opinion because I prefer a sound that stands out. If you take the band Tool, I bloody love the bass sound on 10,000 days. I think if you got Flea set up with the same sound, made him use a pick and learn the song, it'd sound almost identical. The timing would be a bit different, but the tone would be 99% the same.

[jimijimmi]

PERSONALLY- i think Tone is important...although,you can get great sounds through Digital equiptment!
but to me...you cant make Chicken soup from Chicken Sh*t...so without the Tone to work with in the first place,you aint gona get it by adding "false" tone

but what do i know...?.....

everyone's ears are different...

so aslong as YOU are happy with YOUR TONE and YOUR bass,thats all that matters!

[chris_b]

[quote name='silddx' post='735012' date='Feb 4 2010, 01:32 PM']....I think it's a complete fallacy that the core tone of your bass is very important. I think in most cases people are deluding themselves. Of all the things - reliability, playability, comfort and looks - tone is by far the easiest to change to your liking. If that is not the case, why do we spend so much on eq and effects?....[/quote]
I run everything "flat" and don't use any effects so "core tone" and the combination of my pieces of gear is very important to me. It's what makes me sound better than many other players and gets me a lot of the gigs I do.

I don't think many pro players put a lot of effort into their sound (they just get the obligatory SVT and 810) because a sound engineer is going to sort it all out anyway, but you're right, there seems to be a lot of delusion and confusion in the ranks of the semi pro players!

[bigjohn]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='735167' date='Feb 4 2010, 03:53 PM']OK, not entirely seperate. Slapping, picking, long nails or short, hard or soft attack, finger position. All these things will affect tone, but to a subtle degree, which is why I say if ALL of your tone is in your fingers, you must have a boring tone! That's just my opinion because I prefer a sound that stands out. If you take the band Tool, I bloody love the bass sound on 10,000 days. I think if you got Flea set up with the same sound, made him use a pick and learn the song, it'd sound almost identical. The timing would be a bit different, but the tone would be 99% the same.[/quote]


But surely it's all about subtle degrees... lot's of em!

If you've got such a heavily effected signal that you could get two entirely different players to sound "the same" without asking them to vary their normal technique, then that's not exactly "tone" is it? What you're doing there is effecting the signal so heavily as to make the subtleties that would normally end up making the two players sound completely different (their "tone") so minuscule in comparison that they need not exist.

That's stripping tone (or at least it's audibility) not adding to it.

Edited February 4, 2010 by bigjohn

[MacDaddy]

disagree with Siddix that the future is digital - it doesn't have to be, but with him on the tone thing. I designed my custom Shuker for simplicity. 1 pup and no tone controls. The pup has been extra wound and is hum cancelling so it pushes out a sound I can do what I want with.

Everything else was designed for posing though

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='jimijimmi' post='735176' date='Feb 4 2010, 03:57 PM']so aslong as YOU are happy with YOUR TONE and YOUR bass,thats all that matters![/quote]

thinking about it, I haven't liked my tone in my last 2 bands. Thing is it worked in the band context, and sounded great with the guitars, but bass on it's own I didn't like.

[xilddx]

[quote name='jimijimmi' post='735176' date='Feb 4 2010, 03:57 PM']everyone's ears are different...

so aslong as YOU are happy with YOUR TONE and YOUR bass,thats all that matters![/quote]
It's an interesting point, in fact I was just having a quick ciggie thinking about exactly that before I read your post. I sort of came to the conclusion that my choice of rolling tobacco and papers is much more important to me than my choice of bass and amplification.

I personally think Jaco's sound was sh*t, and most of Geddy's sound was too, until fairly recently and on Signals. I love most of Chris Squire's sounds, along with Vivian Weathers', Scott Thunes', Aston Barrett's, Chi Dai Cheng's .. I can approximate all of them on the POD and I very much doubt you would know the difference unless you A/Bed them soloed. I have absolutely no tonal identity.

[fatback]

There's a danger of confusing versatility with quality. A quality sound has all the frequencies, harmonics etc in there. If you want to treat the sound, you've got a good place to start.

Versatility is something different. Being able to make your bass work in a lot of different styles of music matters to some people and not others. Either way, you'd want a quality sound to start with.

The sound that matters to me is that basic starting position you get from the bass (and its preamp).

my 2c.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='bigjohn' post='735183' date='Feb 4 2010, 04:02 PM']But surely it's all about subtle degrees... lot's of em!

If you've got such a heavily effected signal that you could get two entirely different players to sound "the same" without asking them to vary their normal technique, then that's not exactly "tone" is it? What you're doing there is effecting the signal so heavily as to make the subtleties that would normally end up making the two players sound completely different (their "tone") so minuscule in comparison that they need not exist.[/quote]

The example I gave did involve getting Flea to stop slappping and play with a pick.

However, you're right that i'm talking about drastically effected sounds. It seems like we have totally different definitions of the word "tone".

[Marvin]

[quote name='silddx' post='735194' date='Feb 4 2010, 04:12 PM']It's an interesting point, in fact I was just having a quick ciggie thinking about exactly that before I read your post. I sort of came to the conclusion that my choice of rolling tobacco and papers is much more important to me than my choice of bass and amplification.

I personally think Jaco's sound was sh*t, and most of Geddy's sound was too, until fairly recently and on Signals. I love most of Chris Squire's sounds, along with Vivian Weathers', Scott Thunes', Aston Barrett's, Chi Dai Cheng's .. I can approximate all of them on the POD and I very much doubt you would know the difference unless you A/Bed them soloed.[b] I have absolutely no tonal identity.[/b][/quote]
You are then sir, a tonal slut.