"Core Tone" isn't very important in your bass.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='737551' date='Feb 6 2010, 07:38 PM']Are you there, Nigel? As Jaco used to say: 'It ain't braggin', if you can back your sh*t up.'

So please back your sh*t up.[/quote]
Done, cocker. ^

Also, bragging is bragging, even if you can back that sh*t up. Bragging isn't generally pretty and it alienates people, like Jaco did.

Edited February 6, 2010 by silddx

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='silddx' post='737561' date='Feb 6 2010, 07:46 PM']Done, cocker. ^

Also, bragging is bragging, even if you can back that sh*t up. Bragging isn't generally pretty and it alienates people, like Jaco did.[/quote]

Nicely backed up sh*t. Fair play.

Edited February 6, 2010 by Pete Academy

[xilddx]

One more thing about Scott Thunes, he will always react to claims of his genius that everything he did was at an intermediate level and that any decent bassist could do what he did. He will shout at you and give contradictory evidence most of the time if you tell him he's a genius.

[Sibob]

[quote name='silddx' post='737571' date='Feb 6 2010, 08:02 PM']One more thing about Scott Thunes, he will always react to claims of his genius that everything he did was at an intermediate level and that any decent bassist could do what he did. He will shout at you and give contradictory evidence most of the time if you tell him he's a genius.[/quote]

I only know of his work with Zappa (what else did he do?), and from what I gather, Zappa wrote everything out, and so I can see that Thunes would be embarrassed that people treat him as a genius when he's only really doing what any session/pit musician does nightly.
I think Thomas Haake from Meshuggah has a similar outlook, everything lauds him as an amazing drummer, which he is technically, but all he's doing by his own admission, is recreating drum tracks that were often written on computer.

Si

[xilddx]

[quote name='Sibob' post='737587' date='Feb 6 2010, 08:21 PM']I only know of his work with Zappa (what else did he do?), and from what I gather, Zappa wrote everything out, and so I can see that Thunes would be embarrassed that people treat him as a genius when he's only really doing what any session/pit musician does nightly.
I think Thomas Haake from Meshuggah has a similar outlook, everything lauds him as an amazing drummer, which he is technically, but all he's doing by his own admission, is recreating drum tracks that were often written on computer.

Si[/quote]
Zappa gave him pretty much free reign on most things. In fact the horn section often complained bitterly to Zappa that Thunes wasn't supporting their solos enough. Zappa got pissed off with them in the end and apparently loved what Thunes did with his music.

[Sibob]

[quote name='silddx' post='737588' date='Feb 6 2010, 08:25 PM']Zappa gave him pretty much free reign on most things. In fact the horn section often complained bitterly to Zappa that Thunes wasn't supporting their solos enough. Zappa got pissed off with them in the end and apparently loved what Thunes did with his music.[/quote]

Ah ok cool!
My mate did lend me Zappa's auto-biography, I should get round to reading it

Si

[JTUK]

In reply to the original title... I think core tone on a bass itself is paramount..

haven't read the interim, but

I think it is far easier to embellish a sound than to repair and build it..
If a bass didn't have a good tone, first off, it stays in the shop..

[Sibob]

[quote name='JTUK' post='737608' date='Feb 6 2010, 08:53 PM']In reply to the original title... I think core tone on a bass itself is paramount..

haven't read the interim, but

I think it is far easier to embellish a sound than to repair and build it..
If a bass didn't have a good tone, first off, it stays in the shop..[/quote]

Yup

Si

[JTUK]

You can, of course, have too much tone..or too many options.

All my basses are active although 2 can be played passive. The passive tone is lacking to a degree but very usable with my amp flat.
The pre's have a lot of scope, and the para EQ on the amp is pretty flexiable as well, but this could get confusing if I messed with both
I could spend hours going round and round in circles trying to make sense of that lot..
so I get 3 core sounds from the basses to reflect playing styles and the woods do contribute here, but the goal is simplicity and quickness to achieve...

I EQ the basses off the pre amps and don't touch the amp..bar the volume
If I need to go passive, then I start from a position that makes more sense to boast or cut what I might need....but with passives, it is mostly a boast

I have never been happier with the sounds since I stopped messing with the amp..


but.....when tweaking and exploring you need to make little subtle changes, IMV, and not big sweeping knob twiddling

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='JTUK' post='737647' date='Feb 6 2010, 09:32 PM']You can, of course, have too much tone..or too many options.

All my basses are active although 2 can be played passive. The passive tone is lacking to a degree but very usable with my amp flat.
The pre's have a lot of scope, and the para EQ on the amp is pretty flexiable as well, but this could get confusing if I messed with both
I could spend hours going round and round in circles trying to make sense of that lot..
so I get 3 core sounds from the basses to reflect playing styles and the woods do contribute here, but the goal is simplicity and quickness to achieve...

I EQ the basses off the pre amps and don't touch the amp..bar the volume
If I need to go passive, then I start from a position that makes more sense to boast or cut what I might need....but with passives, it is mostly a boast

I have never been happier with the sounds since I stopped messing with the amp..


but.....when tweaking and exploring you need to make little subtle changes, IMV, and not big sweeping knob twiddling [/quote]

thing is, I'm the opposite, I have never been happier since I stopped messing with the bass, hence 1 pup and no tone control.

We all may take different paths but so long as they lead us to the right destination. Or at least take us where we want to go.

[waynepunkdude]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='737551' date='Feb 6 2010, 07:38 PM']Are you there, Nigel? As Jaco used to say: 'It ain't braggin', if you can back your sh*t up.'[/quote]


He also said "give me some money for booze, here's a bass"

[4000]

[quote name='MacDaddy' post='737664' date='Feb 6 2010, 09:59 PM']thing is, I'm the opposite, I have never been happier since I stopped messing with the bass, hence 1 pup and no tone control.

We all may take different paths but so long as they lead us to the right destination. Or at least take us where we want to go.[/quote]

+1! On my 2 main basses I have 2 volumes and 2 tones and you know what? I never use them. The bass is on, full stop. Everything else is done at the amp. However I also loved my Alembic with its filters. Whatever works for the individual in any given instance.

I agree that if I can't get it sounding right it doesn't leave the shop though, unless I'm aware of specific shortcomings in the amp/cab.

Edited February 6, 2010 by 4000

[xilddx]

[quote name='Sibob' post='737591' date='Feb 6 2010, 08:32 PM']Ah ok cool!
My mate did lend me Zappa's auto-biography, I should get round to reading it

Si[/quote]
Which one?

[urb]

Back on topic, I'll ignore the side debate of 'Jaco's flawed geniius' etc., though I did write a little article on the man with quotes from Metheny, Scofield and Mike Brecker which may enlighten you to JP's personality and impact on other players, you can [url="http://www.munkio.com/words/jaco_feature.html"]read it here[/url],

I have to say reiterate that my 'core tone' comes very much from my bass, as in [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJuM2LJb_0M"]this vid[/url] and yes I do use the EQ on the amp to emphasize the sounds I like live, but through a combination of finger picking variations and pickup selection, as well as mid, treble and bass cut or boost I can achieve pretty much any tone I need.

Obviously is you wanted to get completely purist about this then I guess I could still contol my tone just with my fingers with just a volume control and no EQ tweaks but my bass has a fundamental starting point that sounds great. I personally think this is essential as the foundation of a great sound, and as proof of this I have played both my Sei basses through every type of amp, from beaten up rehearsal combos to going straight into the PA or mixing desk, and 9 times out of 10 the fundamental tone of the bass has sounded good, though a better quality amp helps massively, but going direct always allows the bass' tone to shine through.

In fact I think some amps can colour your core tone so much that they end up detracting from it... I know as I've resorted to going through the PA instead of using a horrible sounding Laney amp in rehearsal not so long ago, and through the PA my bass sounded great, everything pretty much flat on the board... big fat tone.

I think this is a great debate though and one that we all should have when choosing gear or seeking out a good sound, personally I really feel it has to come from a great bass, whatever that might be (beaten up vintage or brand new custom etc) and for what suits your musical style and overall approach. To contrast Jaco to Thunes is interesting, two very individual players with two very different sounds, both great musicians both capable of pissing people off! Which ever one you prefer comes down to personal taste and whether Jaco was arrogant or whatever, he was and remains an astonishing and hugely influential player, regardless of whether you like him or not. Same can be said of Charlie Parker, Keith Jarrett, Buddy Rich, Miles Davis, Hendrix etc etc. they all pushed the boundaries of what had come before and for every one person who hated what they did there are 100 who loved it and took it to heart and learned from it. IMO !!!!

Mike

[xilddx]

Nice post, Mike.

[deathpanda]

[quote name='Chris2112' post='735943' date='Feb 5 2010, 11:20 AM']If it is his selfish nature that has created so many beautiful sounds, then I wish I could be that selfish. Jaco's sound is still one of my absolute favourite tones, and the "Jaco honk" on a nice fretless bass is very versatile and can really be used anywhere![/quote]

Seconded. If that's what brash, ugly and selfish all sound like, I fu*king love it.

[xilddx]

[quote name='deathpanda' post='738026' date='Feb 7 2010, 12:57 PM']Seconded. If that's what brash, ugly and selfish all sound like, I fu*king love it.[/quote]
Fair enough.

To me his tone is the Dan [b]Brown Sound[/b].

[ZMech]

I still think that most of the loveliness people get from a boutique bass is probably the placebo effect, in that you expect it to sound better so it does. Am I right that someone on BC actually did a psychology thing testing this theory? If so I'd be interested to know how it turned out.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='Sibob' post='736455' date='Feb 5 2010, 05:32 PM']See that's the thing, my covers band is fundamentally a three piece (and then plus vocals), but when I first joined and tried using any effects to 'beef' up the sound while the guitarist solo'd, I found that they still got lost......[/quote]

If you try effects, and they just "get lost" then, you're doing it wrong! Obviously, as loads of bassists use effects.

[quote name='silddx' post='737411' date='Feb 6 2010, 05:12 PM']I have come to the conclusion that no-one has demonstrated anything useful or constructive about the core tone of an electric bass. It is purely subjective, but people have to justify their (more and more expensive) choices by talking pointless rubbish.

In so many years, no-one has gone beyond, "pleasing mid-range honk", "Jaco-like nasal burp", "deep mid-rangy punch", "accents the upper mids", "The lows are 6.3 on the Richter scale", "Lovely top end sizzle", "Superb slap tone".

Almost every bass you buy can demonstrate these qualities with the right amplification, speaker box and a bit of eq.[/quote]

I totally agree!

[quote name='JTUK' post='737608' date='Feb 6 2010, 08:53 PM']If a bass didn't have a good tone, first off, it stays in the shop..[/quote]

Yeh, but when "good tone" is subjective, there isn't a bad sounding bass in the shop.

[quote name='JTUK' post='737647' date='Feb 6 2010, 09:32 PM']You can, of course, have too much tone..or too many options.[/quote]

Noooooo!!


Say you get to a gig with your rock band. On stage all the low end is disappearing so you turn up the lows on your bass and amp. You're in the middle of a song where it kicks into a big chorus. Normally you'd boost the lows on your bass at this point, but it's maxed out!!

If you have tone "patches" set up for each section in the song, then no matter what room you end up in, you will be able to create the same contrasts in tones. This might mean a multi-effects, or it might mean a huge pedal board.

If your tones don't contrast to such an extent as to contribute to the overall contrasting sounds of the band, then you're missing out on a big area of being a bassist IMO.

I used to play with loads of distortion, but say I joined a classic soul band. I would sell my 6 string and get a P. I'd set up a new pedal board - 2 EQs, a compressor, a blender, an octave etc. so that I have the ability to effect the overall sonic texture of the band.

[Marvin]

I think this thread has been entirely misleading. It would seem to have little to do with Core Tone not being important and more to do with Mr S having a Mazda MX5 that he can't fit an amp or rig into when he goes to gigs.

Tut tut. You're game has been sussed mate.

Edited February 8, 2010 by Marvin

[Bilbo]

Maybe we should set something up at a Bass Bash - get a load of boutique basses and blind test them somehow.

We could get a player to play x number of basses behind a screen; same amp, same settings, same leads etc and see whether listeners can 'hear' a boutique bass?

Or get 30 players to play the same 6 basses or so but blindfolded to see if they can 'feel' an objectively 'better quality' instrument?

We could we get Bass Player Magazine to sponsor it and get Mike (urb) to write it up?

[riff raff]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='739004' date='Feb 8 2010, 03:32 PM']Maybe we should set something up at a Bass Bash - get a load of boutique basses and blind test them somehow.

We could get a player to play x number of basses behind a screen; same amp, same settings, same leads etc and see whether listeners can 'hear' a boutique bass?

Or get 30 players to play the same 6 basses or so but blindfolded to see if they can 'feel' an objectively 'better quality' instrument?

We could we get Bass Player Magazine to sponsor it and get Mike (urb) to write it up?[/quote]


surely people have better things to do with their time..........good grief.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='riff raff' post='739012' date='Feb 8 2010, 03:40 PM']surely people have better things to do with their time..........good grief. [/quote]

But this is science!!!

[waynepunkdude]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='739014' date='Feb 8 2010, 03:42 PM']But this is science!!! [/quote]


+1

[velvetkevorkian]

[quote name='riff raff' post='739012' date='Feb 8 2010, 03:40 PM']surely people have better things to do with their time..........good grief. [/quote]
Because getting a load of folk together to talk bass for a day is otherwise so productive...