PERFECT EAR!?

[jamieariss]

It fascinates me when i see people with a perfect ear..

When i ask them, they say they have always been able to do it ..

does anyone know anyone who has achieved this skill through practice??

[maxrossell]

[quote name='jamieariss' post='693679' date='Dec 26 2009, 12:55 PM']It fascinates me when i see people with a perfect ear..

When i ask them, they say they have always been able to do it ..

does anyone know anyone who has achieved this skill through practice??[/quote]

Depends what you mean by perfect ear.

If you mean perfect pitch, then you can't train to get it. Good relative pitch on the other hand is very easily achievable (unless you're tone-deaf). Perfect pitch is where you are able to indentify a note without reference. Relative pitch is where you are able to identify a note in reference to another.

I think most good musicians have relative pitch to a degree. But perfect pitch is a genetic thing.

[JTUK]

only met very few 'uneducated' guitarists with perfect pitch. I use the word uneducated to explain that you can't converse musically with them, they don't know what notes they are playing and chord names mean absolutley nothing...and neither have they ever had to be interested, but they can make sense of anything you are playing.

Quite a gift in itself, but not much use to anyone playing with them.. as they don't generally bother to use normal conventional musical terms.
In that sense, quite limiting...

[jamieariss]

[quote name='JTUK' post='693707' date='Dec 26 2009, 01:34 PM']only met very few 'uneducated' guitarists with perfect pitch. I use the word uneducated to explain that you can't converse musically with them, they don't know what notes they are playing and chord names mean absolutley nothing...and neither have they ever had to be interested, but they can make sense of anything you are playing.

Quite a gift in itself, but not much use to anyone playing with them.. as they don't generally bother to use normal conventional musical terms.
In that sense, quite limiting...[/quote]

so having a really good sence of reletive pitch would proove more efficient as a musisian then

[The Bass Doc]

Van Gogh was pretty poor at reading the dots, but he had a good e... (censored by the corny joke filter).

[Pete Academy]

After years of music shop work and having to tune a million guitars and basses, I can pretty much pick out an E or G by ear.

Talking of perfect pitch, I once spoke to someone who was blessed with this and he said it was a bit of a curse, as it drives him mad when he hears tiny tuning issues.

[maxrossell]

[quote name='jamieariss' post='693711' date='Dec 26 2009, 01:41 PM']so having a really good sence of reletive pitch would proove more efficient as a musisian then [/quote]

Relative pitch is an invaluable skill as a musician. It makes learning stuff by ear infinitely easier, it enables you to "hear" things before you play them - Someone with very good relative pitch, if they knew the key of a song, would in theory be able to figure out how to play it without seeing any sheet music or having an instrument to work it out on.

Of course to apply it properly and for it to be really useful you'd also need to have at least a basic grasp of theory.

Perfect pitch can be just as valuable as relative pitch, it's just a more specific skill, and it goes beyond just having a good ear into the realms of "feeling" music in ways other people don't.

[Bikenbass]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='693693' date='Dec 26 2009, 01:10 PM']Depends what you mean by perfect ear.

If you mean perfect pitch, then you can't train to get it. Good relative pitch on the other hand is very easily achievable (unless you're tone-deaf). Perfect pitch is where you are able to indentify a note without reference. Relative pitch is where you are able to identify a note in reference to another.

I think most good musicians have relative pitch to a degree. But perfect pitch is a genetic thing.[/quote]

A girl I know has perfect pitch, she was born with it. Her friend at music college with her learned to have perfect pitch.

[Wil]

I consider myself to have very good relative pitch, in that I can tune a guitar or bass by ear to the correct pitch in and if it's slightly off it will indeed drive me mad, and I can go into a band pratice, have a song thrust upon me and generally jump straight in. I think the thing that it helps me the most with is vocal harmonies for backing vocals - being able to identify the 3rd, 7th or whatever you're after from the main vocal and sing that note straight away is invaluable.

As far as being born with pitch awareness or having learned it, I think if you can hear a tune and hum it back then you have at least something in the way of pitch awareness - most people do. All you need to is put it into practice, stop using a tuner for a start and tune by ear, sing along with records and try and harmonise with them etc etc. This will develop your relative pitch if nothing else.

Edited December 26, 2009 by Wil

[JTUK]

[quote name='jamieariss' post='693711' date='Dec 26 2009, 01:41 PM']so having a really good sence of reletive pitch would proove more efficient as a musisian then [/quote]


yes... only came across the guitarists with great pitch in very informal situations.. for some reason, they don't seem to make it beyond that....???

For example, I can't recall any jobbing dep that I know that has perfect pitch, and these guys have very good busking and reading skills.
I think perfect pitch is a gift but only up to a point.... relative pitch is far more useful and any decent ear should be able to train for it, IMV.

Edited December 26, 2009 by JTUK

[Doddy]

[quote name='JTUK' post='693760' date='Dec 26 2009, 03:23 PM']For example, I can't recall any jobbing dep that I know that has perfect pitch, and these guys have very good busking and reading skills.[/quote]

In those kind of situations-where I'm depping(often without charts)- I tend to look at it as a combination of a quick ear and theory
knowledge. That was if you are busking you can kind of predict the changes in advance,and quickly change if you hear something
different than expected.

As far as the perfect pitch thing is concerned,I don't know anyone who has 'perfect' pitch,but I know alot of people
who have good relative pitch. It's totally possible to develop a good ear and gain relative pitch,it just takes a bit of practice.

[oldslapper]

I play in a band on occasion that has a blind guitarist, who has perfect pitch, in that you can play any note/chord and he'll identify it. He tunes pianos to supplement his income and as a sound engineer (don't ask how, but he's brilliant at it).
However, he has "dep'd" for me on bass in the past and the problem is that he tends to be lazy when it comes to practising parts as he uses the "i've got perfect pitch" as an excuse for turning up and blagging hi way through a set. Which is ok if the gig is full of standards. But with very specific parts he gets found out.
Not the fault of having perfect pitch, he's just lazy.
You can train your ear to identify "intervals", or "relative pitch" quite easily, and it's useful to have if you are thrown in to a new situation and have to learn new parts quickly without the score.

[maxrossell]

[quote name='MSL' post='693753' date='Dec 26 2009, 03:11 PM']A girl I know has perfect pitch, she was born with it. Her friend at music college with her learned to have perfect pitch.[/quote]

You can't learn perfect pitch. Her friend probably learned relative pitch to such an extent that the majority of the time she could work well from memory, but perfect pitch is the genetic ability to "know" when a tone is vibrating at a specific cycle rate. It's a genetic thing, like an autistic savant skill, and you either have it or you don't.

[Pete Academy]

Perfect pitch? Isn't that when you throw a banjo into a skip?

[iamapirate]

I know a guy that has almost perfect pitch that he's developed. I mean, surely when it's a born thing, then the gene makes the pitch exactly to 440 tuning? What about these strange cultures that use other tunings other than 440, and where you have quarter tones?

I think that you can develop perfect pitch. You can train your ear to recognise certain notes. For example, I can 100% recognise an Eb becasue of a song I used to constantly play which had an Eb nearly all the time. Unfortunately I can't really just sing it out, but I'm 99% sure that it could be something that you could develop to a pretty decent standard.

[maxrossell]

[quote name='iamapirate' post='693946' date='Dec 26 2009, 07:59 PM']I know a guy that has almost perfect pitch that he's developed. I mean, surely when it's a born thing, then the gene makes the pitch exactly to 440 tuning? What about these strange cultures that use other tunings other than 440, and where you have quarter tones?

I think that you can develop perfect pitch. You can train your ear to recognise certain notes. For example, I can 100% recognise an Eb becasue of a song I used to constantly play which had an Eb nearly all the time. Unfortunately I can't really just sing it out, but I'm 99% sure that it could be something that you could develop to a pretty decent standard.[/quote]

It doesn't work like that. Your personal pitch isn't tuned to one specific frequency. You "know" how to reproduce frequencies at whatever pitch you have learned. If you have perfect pitch but you're a part of a culture that doesn't use A440, you reproduce the frequencies that are used in the music of your culture.

Recognising certain notes is not the same as having perfect pitch. Anyone can train themselves to pick out a C. Being able to actually sing a C without any reference, though, is almost impossible without perfect pitch.

[Wil]

If being able to sing a note from memory is the prerequisite, then I have perfect pitch, but somehow I think anyone could do that with a bit of practice.

[Mykesbass]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='693811' date='Dec 26 2009, 04:45 PM']Perfect pitch? Isn't that when you throw a banjo into a skip?[/quote]



My brother (trumpeter) has seemed to develop perfect pitch over time. He has a real problem with the tempered tuning of fretted instruments, but then on the other hand he loves English folk music.....

[NickH]

I seem to recall reading about a famour superfast shredder guitarist (Steve Vai?) who has great relative pitch but it frustrated him that he didn't have perfect pitch. What he did was to play himself a constant A=440 note as he went to sleep and all the while he slept. After a while this "tuned" his brain to that note so whenever he heard any given note in the future, he could name it relative to the note in his head.

Of course, it's all a moot point as the guy clearly has FAR too much time on his hands, and no girlfriend. I can imagine what my other half would say if I wanted to leave a weight on the A key of a keyboard all evening and night...

[doctor_of_the_bass]

[quote name='jamieariss' post='693679' date='Dec 26 2009, 12:55 PM']It fascinates me when i see people with a perfect ear..

When i ask them, they say they have always been able to do it ..

does anyone know anyone who has achieved this skill through practice??[/quote]

Hallo son!

Good to see you `ear!

Hehehe!

Nick (you did not mention me in the above topic quote!!!!)

[BottomEndian]

Call it what you will (I don't call it perfect pitch), but I can identify a note/chord/key/whatever by ear, without reference to an instrument at hand. I also [i]used to[/i] be able to produce any pitch I was asked to (within my vocal range, obviously ), which often resulted in me giving the choir's starting note/chord back in my days of [i]a capella[/i] choral singing. It all stemmed from years of playing the violin as a kid. Hours and hours of checking intonation against open strings (and against a piano) led to the notes becoming completely embedded in my memory -- I knew what the note would need to sound like before I got to it. I've been able to sight-sing pretty much every choral piece that's ever been plonked in front of me. It's a useful skill to have, especially now I'm getting into fretless bass.

[b]However[/b] -- and this is a pretty big however in my book -- transposition on-the-fly is beyond a headf**k for me. Just looking at the Wikipedia page for absolute pitch (the other term for "perfect pitch"), this sums me up perfectly:
[quote]People who have absolute pitch may feel irritated when a piece is transposed to a different key or played at a nonstandard pitch. Musicians with absolute pitch may fail to develop relative pitch skills when following standard curricula, conceptualizing music as a sequence of absolute tones instead; it thus becomes difficult for them to transpose or play a transposing instrument. They may also not be able to continue playing or singing with a group when the pitch drops, or with an orchestra that is not tuned to standard concert pitch A4 = 440 hertz (variable); this may be due to a perception of pitch which is categorical rather than freely adjustable.[/quote]
It's been my undoing many a time, especially "they may also not be able to continue playing or singing with a group when the pitch drops". Anyone who's sung with an unaccompanied choir will tell you that the pitch dropping is a very common occurrence, which results in me having to mentally transpose everything down by a quarter-tone... or singing loudly and slightly sharp in an attempt to drag it back up again.

With my band, we're quite often just riffing away merrily, usually in drop-C (C-G-C-F), drop-Bb (Bb-F-Bb-Eb) or drop-A (A-E-A-D). Sometimes, for the sake of the singer, we switch something that we've been working on from the drop-C-tuned instruments to (say) the drop-A-tuned ones. Even though we're playing the same patterns on the same frets on the same strings, it takes me ages to adjust mentally. And if we ever did a cover, I'd struggle to play it in a different key from the original.

Obviously, if making music was my job I'd work on improving this area, but it's just my little cross to bear for now.

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='695280' date='Dec 28 2009, 11:54 PM']I also [i]used to[/i] be able to produce any pitch I was asked to...[/quote]
Reading that back, I've remembered another point I was going to make: I've pretty much lost my accuracy in that respect. I'm bang-on if you play me a note/chord and ask me what it is (after all, there are only 12 discrete points it can be, so that's a shedload easier). If you say, "sing an F#", then I can and I'm usually pretty good... but I might be up to a quarter-tone either way. Especially if I'm tired or ill. Again, I'm sure practice would get those juices flowing again, but it's pretty interesting for me anyway.

Edited December 28, 2009 by BottomEndian

[demanufacture]

I'm wondering how can we descirbe perfect ear... the hearing is not an objective sense (it's only for ourselves)

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='demanufacture' post='695316' date='Dec 29 2009, 01:20 AM']I'm wondering how can we descirbe perfect ear... the hearing is not an objective sense (it's only for ourselves)[/quote]
Wikipedia says: [quote]Absolute pitch (AP), widely referred to as perfect pitch, is the ability of a person to identify or recreate a musical note without the benefit of an external reference [...] Generally, absolute pitch implies some or all of the following abilities when done without reference to an external standard:
* Identify by name individual pitches (e.g. A, B, C#) played on various instruments
* Name the key of a given piece of tonal music just by listening (without reference to an external tone)
* Identify and name all the tones of a given chord or other tonal mass
* Sing a given pitch without an external reference
* Name the pitches of common everyday noises such as car horns[/quote]
Sounds fairly objective to me.

[V4lve]

I think it's an audio memory thing. Some people are simply better at it than others.

Having sung to the same kinds of songs in church and played guitar since I was a kid (over 35 years now...) I have moderately good pitch memory (my dad did too). Given a tune I know well I can usually make a good stab at the key it is supposed to be sung in without using an instrument (which is useful when there are no musicians at a meeting and we want a good sing song). Or work out what a note is based on my memory of what the top E on a guitar sounds like. Occasionally I surprise myself by being spot on. But mostly not (just tried to remember E, tested it on the piano and found I was whistling a D!).