The problem of Subs in Pubs.

[Phil Starr]

1 hour ago, uk_lefty said:

Exactly 364 days after purchase. Built in obsolescence is really evolving.

How old actually is the sub? If it is really just less than a year old you will still have rights.

 

It's frustrating in so many areas now. Modern consumer electronics is actually so much more reliable than the gear of my childhood and cheaper too but largely unrepairable. All the electronics on a single board with surface mount components means practical component level repairs are somewhere between difficult to impossible. Assembly in the far east means circuit diagrams and component availablity is almost non existent. If your amp is class D and has a switch mode supply I'd suspect the power supply. That probably means sourcing a whole new amp but you might be lucky.

[uk_lefty]

The drummer bought it brand new 364 days before it failed at Saturday's gig. He is trying to see if it's under any kind of warranty. I also want to take my little SWR amp for a bit of TLC to the amp repair man locally so can easily pass him the sub too at the same time for a diagnosis if it's not under warranty.

[pete.young]

5 hours ago, uk_lefty said:

The drummer bought it brand new 364 days before it failed at Saturday's gig. He is trying to see if it's under any kind of warranty. I also want to take my little SWR amp for a bit of TLC to the amp repair man locally so can easily pass him the sub too at the same time for a diagnosis if it's not under warranty.

Under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, in England and Wales you have 6 years from the date of purchase to seek a remedy from the retailer, for goods which have failed within a reasonable lifespan for the product. This is independent of any manufacturers warranty. After 6 months you have to demonstrate that the equipment has failed prematurely.

[Phil Starr]

5 hours ago, uk_lefty said:

The drummer bought it brand new 364 days before it failed at Saturday's gig. He is trying to see if it's under any kind of warranty. I also want to take my little SWR amp for a bit of TLC to the amp repair man locally so can easily pass him the sub too at the same time for a diagnosis if it's not under warranty.

Well said @pete.young

 

This might be useful, it was my starting point in getting money back on a faulty car https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/what-do-i-do-if-i-have-a-faulty-product-aTTEK2g0YuEy

 

Which also offer online and telephone advice from their solicitors at a reasonable price if you need it. Contact your retailer and keep track of correspondance (emails are helpful here) usual tactic is delay in the hope you give up (though you may be lucky) so keep plugging away regularly and if answers are slow you can give them time limits by which they have to respond. Taking them to the claims court isn't expensive (there are set fees) and most businesses find it cheaper to settle than to go to court.

 

Out of curiosity who was the retailer and what make is the sub?

[Downunderwonder]

A working band has "consumer" rights? Not likely.

 

If a store buys a TV to use to play video and it dies prematurely that's tough luck.

[Chienmortbb]

That 6 year rule is a hangover from EU membership. Probably some of the “ Red Tape” that we “need” to get rid of.

[tauzero]

14 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

A working band has "consumer" rights? Not likely.

 

If a store buys a TV to use to play video and it dies prematurely that's tough luck.

 

If an individual buys it, then they're a consumer, unless it's the individual's main business. So any weekend warrior band member can buy a piece of equipment (as themselves) and they're then a consumer.

 

The Sale and Supply of Goods Act 1994 gives a business rights concerning quality, refunds, etc.

Edited April 30 by tauzero

[Muzz]

I've gigged extensively in pubs, some smaller clubs and all sorts of wedding/function venues with two RCF 12 tops and a single 12 sub, and it was never, ever short of volume - and that's with triggered drums and no backline (guitar/vocal, bass, drums trio doing all sorts of music). If you need to go much louder than that in the sort of places above then the people at the front are being deafened...  We've even used a pair of Bose S1s with the RCF 12 sub, and that was fine for smaller places.

 

Newer band is a four-piece, no backline, miked kit, and through two RCF 15 tops it can go stupidly, pointlessly loud for pubs. I use inears, which are a blessing because it's so loud.

 

All the bigger gigs I've played have had backline and/or appropriate sized PA for the venue.

 

I can't recall a gig in the last 15 years when I either thought or have been told by a punter that any band I was in wasn't loud enough. Too loud, yes, not loud enough, no. Only ever played with a single 12 sub, now and then.

Edited April 30 by Muzz

[Phil Starr]

Yeah my 15" RCF's are also stupidly loud if we need them to be. Just a bit over the top really in most of our venues.

 

I'm a bit concenrned about some of the advice on sub placement though. Firstly you ideally want all your drivers time aligned especially around the crossover points so putting subs just anywhere can be less than optimal unlessyou can adjust delay to re-align the speakers. That's more in the realms of installed systems or professional sound engineers than pub bands though

 

I'm also concerned about wall reinforcement. Even on the floor you are getting a 6db uplift in bass and my subs are easily matching the tops and having to be trimmed back unless I'm outdoors. this is obviously dependant upon which subs you use and what tops you are matching with them so knowing your own system and matching it to circumstances at the venue seems better than adopting a blanket solution for every venue. Using walls and corners to lift the bass if you don't have enough is worth knowing about but I don't think anyone is doing it at every venue.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

On the 6dB lift from being on the floor speaker response is a half-space result. If the baffle is less than a wavelength in dimension, which below 100Hz is a minimum of 3.4 metres, the speaker must be on the floor for half-space loading. Where wall and corner loading are concerned the additional sensitivity gained means you can use less power and/or a smaller sub for the same result, but of far more significance doing so eliminates the potential for boundary reflection cancellations as much as 24dB deep where the sub is a quarter wavelength from said boundaries. 

[Owen]

On 28/04/2024 at 14:39, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

 Having subs next to a wall gets you 6dB of additional sensitivity, putting them in a corner an extra 12dB. In most cases you’ll have best results aiming the subs towards the wall or corner from about 30cm away from the boundary.

When I FINALLY get around to sorting out my church PA, our 4 1x10" subs are going to be stacked in the corner facing the wall like naughty children. Thanks Bill.

[Owen]

On 28/04/2024 at 19:07, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

the bass sounds like a bass and not a 30 ton dump truck dropping a load.

I am conflicted here. Having both options available would be lovely

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Depending on the size of the room putting them in more than one corner, even in four corners, may give the best result. The only way to be sure is via trial and error, though software like REW (roomeqwizard) makes it much easier.

[uk_lefty]

On 28/04/2024 at 19:17, Happy Jack said:

 

Bloody consumer electronics ... almost certainly cheaper to replace than to investigate / repair / fail again.

Well, we replaced it with something from a credible brand this time, I think it's a Mackie 18" sub. So, the failed Amazon not-so-prime sub is up for sale at the paltry sum of £25 because the cabinet is definitely in good condition, the speaker might be ok and if someone was looking to build their own bass cabs this could be a good option for them.

[Greg Edwards69]

On 28/04/2024 at 12:39, Phil Starr said:

My first observation is that there isn't a perfect set up or a 'right' answer to the problems. As Erwin Rommel once said; "no plan survives the first contact with the enemy" and that is true of setting up PA in a strange venue. Those who insist in placing subs centrally clearly haven't been asked to set up in a typical british pub with no raised platform or indeed any defined stage area. Fully 30% of our venues have the only access to the toilets to the side of or directly behind our 'stage' Immediately any speakers on poles are a hazard as drunk customers push past the band on their way to relieve themselves and the floor monitors become a trip hazard. In my experience speaker placement is a compromise between pubilc safety, avoiding claims for damages and acoustic perfection with the former being the most important consideration.

 

So let's hear your experiences, ever tried subs? Had any problems? Positive experiences? Practical tips to offer?

Yep. It's still a learning process for us. Some of the venue's we play have a stage with a little bit that sticks out in the middle where the singers stand, with the speaker stands either side. We have no choice but to put our single sub on one side.

On 28/04/2024 at 12:57, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

IME when a room is so small that sub placement is an issue you don't need subs. Good quality ten or twelve inch mains shouldn't have any problems, as they should always be high passed no lower than 80Hz. As for central placement of subs, that should very seldom be employed anyway. The beauty of omnidirectionality is that subs can be placed out of the way.

We set up in a rehearsal space of similar size to the typical venues we play at, and ran QSC's helpful calibration guide to find a baseline for sub and tops volume settings. This way if we have a reference to reset to if we ever find the sub is overpowering the room (like we did at the last gig. We run the sub from the mixer main output and the top from the subs, so for us it's easier to wire the sub in and not need it, than set everything else up only to find out we do need it.

 

Our tops can't be high passed any lower than 100hz so we set the sub's crossover to 100hz as well. We noticed that the sub appeared directional when placed closer to one side of the room to the other - you could definitely tell what side of the room it was coming from (I wonder if this is due to the 100hz crossover) and sounded more consistent when centred, so ideally we'd like to centre it whenever we can. Which brings me to...

On 28/04/2024 at 14:39, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Some basic sub placement notes: While it’s customary with PA to have speakers to either side of the stage that’s usually not the best way to place subs. Subs work best when they’re placed either close together for mutual coupling, or spread very wide to cover large areas. The basic rule is to have them either less than a quarter-wavelength apart or more than two wavelengths apart for their pass band, which for 40 to 100 Hz means less than 1 metre or more than 20 metres.

Boundary loading should be used whenever it’s practical to do so. Having subs next to a wall gets you 6dB of additional sensitivity, putting them in a corner an extra 12dB. In most cases you’ll have best results aiming the subs towards the wall or corner from about 30cm away from the boundary. The long wavelengths from subs are omnidirectional and cannot be directionally located, so there's no need to have them near the mains or even near the stage.

Would putting a single sub at the back of the stage, up against the wall, centre-ish be an option? I realise the stage would be louder, although more felt than heard, and boundary loading would give it a little help too. I understand there could be a time delay, but we're only talking 2 or 3 metres front to back in the average UK pub.

On 29/04/2024 at 03:15, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

You should high pass subs, at their lower corner frequency. That's typically between 30 and 40Hz. 

I high pass my bass at the subs corner frequency directly in Helix, and the bass drum on the mixer so we don't overload it.

[agedhorse]

On 28/04/2024 at 08:18, Phil Starr said:

I've never worried too much about subs under tops. Whilst completely accepting the phasing issues and the creation of power alleys I've found in small venues with multiple path lengths sound is reflected off nearby hard surfaces  andit isn't as much of a problem as it will be in more open spaces. On the other hand stable supports for your speakers when people are dancing only a few cm away for me is the crucial issue. It's worth mentioning also that the issue of power alleys applies equally to the bass coming from your tops. The cancellation depends only on the distance between the speakers and the frequency/wavelength so outdoors where you have more space to group your subs together there is an extra reason to opt for using subs.

I agree. There’s nothing inherently wrong with using subs, and in reality the power alley thing is greatly overblown in most smaller indoor situations. It’s actually overblown in general, it’s just one of the tradeoffs that a pragmatic pro audio provider deals with on a day to day basis.

 

The greatest benefit is to use subs for low frequency extension, to take the pressure off of the top cabinets to provide that extension. They do not have to be used to add “boom” to the system.

[okusman]

I use a single 12” RCF sub with a couple of QSC K10s.

The benefit has always been to ‘clean up’ the mix to my ear. I never look to make beer glasses rattle, if I’m honest I err on the side of less is best. 
There are always a ton of variables that will complicate the sonic nature of a room. I’ll always have a Sub in use; but not use it to try and dislodge internal organs.