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The problem of Subs in Pubs.


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1 hour ago, uk_lefty said:

Exactly 364 days after purchase. Built in obsolescence is really evolving.

How old actually is the sub? If it is really just less than a year old you will still have rights.

 

It's frustrating in so many areas now. Modern consumer electronics is actually so much more reliable than the gear of my childhood and cheaper too but largely unrepairable. All the electronics on a single board with surface mount components means practical component level repairs are somewhere between difficult to impossible. Assembly in the far east means circuit diagrams and component availablity is almost non existent. If your amp is class D and has a switch mode supply I'd suspect the power supply. That probably means sourcing a whole new amp but you might be lucky.

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The drummer bought it brand new 364 days before it failed at Saturday's gig. He is trying to see if it's under any kind of warranty. I also want to take my little SWR amp for a bit of TLC to the amp repair man locally so can easily pass him the sub too at the same time for a diagnosis if it's not under warranty.

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5 hours ago, uk_lefty said:

The drummer bought it brand new 364 days before it failed at Saturday's gig. He is trying to see if it's under any kind of warranty. I also want to take my little SWR amp for a bit of TLC to the amp repair man locally so can easily pass him the sub too at the same time for a diagnosis if it's not under warranty.

Under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, in England and Wales you have 6 years from the date of purchase to seek a remedy from the retailer, for goods which have failed within a reasonable lifespan for the product. This is independent of any manufacturers warranty. After 6 months you have to demonstrate that the equipment has failed prematurely.

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5 hours ago, uk_lefty said:

The drummer bought it brand new 364 days before it failed at Saturday's gig. He is trying to see if it's under any kind of warranty. I also want to take my little SWR amp for a bit of TLC to the amp repair man locally so can easily pass him the sub too at the same time for a diagnosis if it's not under warranty.

Well said @pete.young

 

This might be useful, it was my starting point in getting money back on a faulty car https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/what-do-i-do-if-i-have-a-faulty-product-aTTEK2g0YuEy

 

Which also offer online and telephone advice from their solicitors at a reasonable price if you need it. Contact your retailer and keep track of correspondance (emails are helpful here) usual tactic is delay in the hope you give up (though you may be lucky) so keep plugging away regularly and if answers are slow you can give them time limits by which they have to respond. Taking them to the claims court isn't expensive (there are set fees) and most businesses find it cheaper to settle than to go to court.

 

Out of curiosity who was the retailer and what make is the sub?

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14 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

A working band has "consumer" rights? Not likely.

 

If a store buys a TV to use to play video and it dies prematurely that's tough luck.

 

If an individual buys it, then they're a consumer, unless it's the individual's main business. So any weekend warrior band member can buy a piece of equipment (as themselves) and they're then a consumer.

 

The Sale and Supply of Goods Act 1994 gives a business rights concerning quality, refunds, etc.

Edited by tauzero
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I've gigged extensively in pubs, some smaller clubs and all sorts of wedding/function venues with two RCF 12 tops and a single 12 sub, and it was never, ever short of volume - and that's with triggered drums and no backline (guitar/vocal, bass, drums trio doing all sorts of music). If you need to go much louder than that in the sort of places above then the people at the front are being deafened...  We've even used a pair of Bose S1s with the RCF 12 sub, and that was fine for smaller places.

 

Newer band is a four-piece, no backline, miked kit, and through two RCF 15 tops it can go stupidly, pointlessly loud for pubs. I use inears, which are a blessing because it's so loud.

 

All the bigger gigs I've played have had backline and/or appropriate sized PA for the venue.

 

I can't recall a gig in the last 15 years when I either thought or have been told by a punter that any band I was in wasn't loud enough. Too loud, yes, not loud enough, no. Only ever played with a single 12 sub, now and then.

Edited by Muzz
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Yeah my 15" RCF's are also stupidly loud if we need them to be. Just a bit over the top really in most of our venues.

 

I'm a bit concenrned about some of the advice on sub placement though. Firstly you ideally want all your drivers time aligned especially around the crossover points so putting subs just anywhere can be less than optimal unlessyou can adjust delay to re-align the speakers. That's more in the realms of installed systems or professional sound engineers than pub bands though :)

 

I'm also concerned about wall reinforcement. Even on the floor you are getting a 6db uplift in bass and my subs are easily matching the tops and having to be trimmed back unless I'm outdoors. this is obviously dependant upon which subs you use and what tops you are matching with them so knowing your own system and matching it to circumstances at the venue seems better than adopting a blanket solution for every venue. Using walls and corners to lift the bass if you don't have enough is worth knowing about but I don't think anyone is doing it at every venue.

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On the 6dB lift from being on the floor speaker response is a half-space result. If the baffle is less than a wavelength in dimension, which below 100Hz is a minimum of 3.4 metres, the speaker must be on the floor for half-space loading. Where wall and corner loading are concerned the additional sensitivity gained means you can use less power and/or a smaller sub for the same result, but of far more significance doing so eliminates the potential for boundary reflection cancellations as much as 24dB deep where the sub is a quarter wavelength from said boundaries. 

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On 28/04/2024 at 14:39, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

 Having subs next to a wall gets you 6dB of additional sensitivity, putting them in a corner an extra 12dB. In most cases you’ll have best results aiming the subs towards the wall or corner from about 30cm away from the boundary.

When I FINALLY get around to sorting out my church PA, our 4 1x10" subs are going to be stacked in the corner facing the wall like naughty children. Thanks Bill.

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On 28/04/2024 at 19:07, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

the bass sounds like a bass and not a 30 ton dump truck dropping a load.

I am conflicted here. Having both options available would be lovely :)

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  • 1 month later...
On 28/04/2024 at 19:17, Happy Jack said:

 

Bloody consumer electronics ... almost certainly cheaper to replace than to investigate / repair / fail again.

Well, we replaced it with something from a credible brand this time, I think it's a Mackie 18" sub. So, the failed Amazon not-so-prime sub is up for sale at the paltry sum of £25 because the cabinet is definitely in good condition, the speaker might be ok and if someone was looking to build their own bass cabs this could be a good option for them.

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On 28/04/2024 at 12:39, Phil Starr said:

My first observation is that there isn't a perfect set up or a 'right' answer to the problems. As Erwin Rommel once said; "no plan survives the first contact with the enemy" and that is true of setting up PA in a strange venue. Those who insist in placing subs centrally clearly haven't been asked to set up in a typical british pub with no raised platform or indeed any defined stage area. Fully 30% of our venues have the only access to the toilets to the side of or directly behind our 'stage' :) Immediately any speakers on poles are a hazard as drunk customers push past the band on their way to relieve themselves and the floor monitors become a trip hazard. In my experience speaker placement is a compromise between pubilc safety, avoiding claims for damages and acoustic perfection with the former being the most important consideration.

 

So let's hear your experiences, ever tried subs? Had any problems? Positive experiences? Practical tips to offer?

Yep. It's still a learning process for us. Some of the venue's we play have a stage with a little bit that sticks out in the middle where the singers stand, with the speaker stands either side. We have no choice but to put our single sub on one side.

On 28/04/2024 at 12:57, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

IME when a room is so small that sub placement is an issue you don't need subs. Good quality ten or twelve inch mains shouldn't have any problems, as they should always be high passed no lower than 80Hz. As for central placement of subs, that should very seldom be employed anyway. The beauty of omnidirectionality is that subs can be placed out of the way.

We set up in a rehearsal space of similar size to the typical venues we play at, and ran QSC's helpful calibration guide to find a baseline for sub and tops volume settings. This way if we have a reference to reset to if we ever find the sub is overpowering the room (like we did at the last gig. We run the sub from the mixer main output and the top from the subs, so for us it's easier to wire the sub in and not need it, than set everything else up only to find out we do need it.

 

Our tops can't be high passed any lower than 100hz so we set the sub's crossover to 100hz as well. We noticed that the sub appeared directional when placed closer to one side of the room to the other - you could definitely tell what side of the room it was coming from (I wonder if this is due to the 100hz crossover) and sounded more consistent when centred, so ideally we'd like to centre it whenever we can. Which brings me to...

On 28/04/2024 at 14:39, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Some basic sub placement notes: While it’s customary with PA to have speakers to either side of the stage that’s usually not the best way to place subs. Subs work best when they’re placed either close together for mutual coupling, or spread very wide to cover large areas. The basic rule is to have them either less than a quarter-wavelength apart or more than two wavelengths apart for their pass band, which for 40 to 100 Hz means less than 1 metre or more than 20 metres.

Boundary loading should be used whenever it’s practical to do so. Having subs next to a wall gets you 6dB of additional sensitivity, putting them in a corner an extra 12dB. In most cases you’ll have best results aiming the subs towards the wall or corner from about 30cm away from the boundary. The long wavelengths from subs are omnidirectional and cannot be directionally located, so there's no need to have them near the mains or even near the stage.

Would putting a single sub at the back of the stage, up against the wall, centre-ish be an option? I realise the stage would be louder, although more felt than heard, and boundary loading would give it a little help too. I understand there could be a time delay, but we're only talking 2 or 3 metres front to back in the average UK pub.

On 29/04/2024 at 03:15, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

You should high pass subs, at their lower corner frequency. That's typically between 30 and 40Hz. 

I high pass my bass at the subs corner frequency directly in Helix, and the bass drum on the mixer so we don't overload it.

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On 28/04/2024 at 08:18, Phil Starr said:

I've never worried too much about subs under tops. Whilst completely accepting the phasing issues and the creation of power alleys I've found in small venues with multiple path lengths sound is reflected off nearby hard surfaces  andit isn't as much of a problem as it will be in more open spaces. On the other hand stable supports for your speakers when people are dancing only a few cm away for me is the crucial issue. It's worth mentioning also that the issue of power alleys applies equally to the bass coming from your tops. The cancellation depends only on the distance between the speakers and the frequency/wavelength so outdoors where you have more space to group your subs together there is an extra reason to opt for using subs.

I agree. There’s nothing inherently wrong with using subs, and in reality the power alley thing is greatly overblown in most smaller indoor situations. It’s actually overblown in general, it’s just one of the tradeoffs that a pragmatic pro audio provider deals with on a day to day basis.

 

The greatest benefit is to use subs for low frequency extension, to take the pressure off of the top cabinets to provide that extension. They do not have to be used to add “boom” to the system.

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I use a single 12” RCF sub with a couple of QSC K10s.

The benefit has always been to ‘clean up’ the mix to my ear. I never look to make beer glasses rattle, if I’m honest I err on the side of less is best. 
There are always a ton of variables that will complicate the sonic nature of a room. I’ll always have a Sub in use; but not use it to try and dislodge internal organs.

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Quick question... or not!

 

Small to medium size venues, utilising a single 12" sub (to be determined and purchased) and a pair of QSC K10s on stands.

 

Reference is often made re. 'rear/back wall' indicating rear to be the wall behind or where the band are setting up, leading to the assumption that front wall being effectively behind the last audience member (does that make sense?).  If a sub (I'm phrasing this as per my band using a single 12" sub) is omnidirectional does that then mean that a sub can be placed either facing toward/parallel/out from a side wall running the length of a room?  I'm aware that a sub can be placed anywhere in a room but practical purposes mean it can rarely be the wall or corner furthest from the band (behind the audience) and the wall behind the performance area would lead to the sub bleeding into a kick/snare drum mic, hence my musings on best offset 'side wall' placement.

 

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The best way of thinking about speaker directionality is picturing it as light. A guitar cab is like a flashlight sending out a focussed beam but spilling a little sound to the sides, a pale reflection of what you get in the main beam. Your PA horns are more like a street lamp spreading the sound evenly over the area you want to illuminate and spilling as little as possible outside that area. The subs are like an old fashioned incandescent lamp, the bare bulb in the middle of the ceiling radiating sound out evenly all round the room but brighter close up and fading over distance.

 

So just like the bare bulb or globe lamp putting your sub in front of you or behind you makes no difference to how loud it is for you. All that really matters is how far away it is. A sub placed a single metre in front of you is going to drown you in low frequency the same as if you place it a metre behind you. As you say positioning in one sense is not important, but distance is and putting the sub close to something that can resonate like a drum skin or an acoustic guitar or double bass is going to make feedback a problem. Ideally also you wnat to think about distance from the audience which is why a central position is ideal, otherwise the people on the side nearest the sub will get more bass than those on the far side of the auditorium. Obviously if you put it at the back of the room the people at the back will hear all the bass but the tops at the other end will be quiet and for the people at the front the bass will have faded but the tops really loud. There are also phase issies but let's keep it simple.

 

Not completely simple though :) the last consideration are the walls floors and ceilings. Going back to the bare bulb, picture it in a room covered in mirrors; floors, ceiling and walls all covered. The light will be reflected so that on the floor a perfect mirror will double the light you get in your eyes. put it against the wall on the floor and they will both reflect the bulb and you'll get even more light. Now take the bare bulb into the corner and it will reflect off all the surfaces and all the light that was radiating 360deg in a sphere will be reflected back into the room making it really bright for anyone in that corner. Of course you'll see reflections of the bulb all around the room if it is totally mirrored receding into infinity. Hard walls floors and surfaces are almost perfect mirrors for low frequency sound.

 

So QSC K10's plus a 12" sub? Yes please (I'm actually looking for something like this myself as a possible mega portable system) Those 10's are going to be as capable as 12's or even 15's for vocals and guitar, they may even have the same horn drivers. A single 12" sub will probably generate more than enough low end especially if you can place it in a corner. You can get as much as 18db extra bass by careful placement. Those 10's will give you a better sound than most of the 'stick' systems on offer. The only downside is that you will have to sort the placemnt of the subs and there will be a learning curve. That's why I started this thread. 'Subs in Pubs' do solve problems and it's a great idea to reduce the weight of the bits of PA you are lifting and carrying but they do create other challenges and for the UK's ancient buildings the solution has to be different for every venue. You can make this work but expect to have to experiment and for there to be a learning curve.

 

I'm wondering about offering to do PA for friends bands so I can sort problems without having to play bass and sing at the same time

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I should say from the off that I've done live band PA mixing for over 40 years and most of my practice has been 'suck it and see', with a fair degree of success.  However, as it has invariably been pairs of 15's on poles with no sub (Peavey passives through to RCF actives... and most stuff in-between).  I find myself in a scenario where I go out as a low volume 'acoustic' duo with 1 or possibly 2 QSC K10s; no problems or more gear required.  Enter, old band starting back up and my K10's are not going to do justice to full band; 3 vocals, kick, snare, bass and possibly guitar but they could work well if adding a single 12" sub but I'm having to factor in where is best to use it in an average room. 

 

All rooms are unequal is my starting point, so my example to follow will have lots of ifs and buts to be decided on arrival.  I'm trying to decide 'figuratively' where might be the best place for a single 12" sub in a rectangular room, with band at one end and audience spread across the other 7/8ths of a room.  It can't go behind the drums on a rear wall as the drum mics will be a mare.  Centre of stage front is obvious position but it is nowhere near boundaries to benefit from that boost.  Hence, could a side wall parallel with the front baffle of the tops be used?  If it is placed on the left, anyone on that side will get excess in comparison to the opposite side of the room.  

 

So where to go?  :)  

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Played a gig a couple of years ago in a pretty good size pub/ music venue complete with acreage of stage to fit the whole 18 piece band, and dancefloor to match, but still a pub. Stage rig was 410 cab and 1000w amp.

 

My band is used to playing that size as the village hall venues are not a whole lot bigger or smaller. Mainly with vocal PA and drummer with healthy kick. Bass for the band and the room is louder than I would like but it works.

 

Enter soundmonkey with his subs.

 

I turned my bass down and used a lighter and lighter touch, until I was merely brushing the strings, and he would just boost me right back up to blowing up the room, with almost nothing coming from the monitor rig.

 

Same with the kick. The drummer got up and took the mic away. Lucky there was a DI send level on the amp which I cut off and we were back in business with no pop.

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21 hours ago, warwickhunt said:

So where to go?  :) 

OK some experience then. I play in an 'acoustic' duo using a couple of RCF 10's as PA. Also in a couple of bands with RCF15's and crucially an elecctric kit. One particular pub has a really narrow 'stage'  and is also quite small and absolutely rammed. With the 15's the band pretty much are all hidden except the singer and can't see the audience either. I've got a pair of 15" subs which I only use for outside gigs so I tried the RCF ART 310's with one of the subs. I placed it up against a side wall with one of the 10's mounted on top the other on the usual stand. First of all the drums sounded immense, the 10's had no trouble with the rest of the frequency spectrum the only problem was getting a good balance between the tops and the subs. I kind of regretted not setting it all up at a rehearsal and should have erred on the side of too little bass rather than too much and due to the packed nature of the pub I couldn't really access the sub during the gig. Oh to have a sound engineer :)

 

Anyway conclusion is that it works as a system even with fairly modest 10's, I'd anticipate the QSC K10's being a touch pokier than the base level RCF's. I also think a 'good' 12" sub would be enough for most gigs, something of the same sort of quality as the QSC's. I've some spare cash in my band fund at the moment so I've wondered about upgrading from the RCF 310's. I'd have no problem if I started from scratch with going for a sub with a couple of good quality 10's and expecting that to do as good a job as a couple of 15's on poles. If I was doing bigger gigs and didn't have the 15's already I'd probably be looking at a second sub for some gigs.

 

In terms of feedback from the drum mic's then if the sub is under one of your tops and is set to provide the same level of bass as you would have with bigger tops then you should have no extra problems.

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So placing the sub front left/right of the stage with a 10" mounted on a pole above (getting no reinforcement/lift from being placed next to a wall or corner) is preferrable to positioning a sub elsewhere near a wall/corner?  I realise it is a single sub so I don't need to worry about length of wave et al but I thought the consensus was that a sub benefits from placement next to a boundary.  BTW this is NOT for my acoustic duo, this is purely for a 4 piece band inc kick/snare mic'd.

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