uk_lefty Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 Just been watching Scott Devine's interview with Marcus Miller. Marcus talks about how Jaco's Donna Lee sounded like random notes until he played the piano chords over it and then understood how Jaco was using harmony. Marcus goes on to say how important it is to understand harmony. I read something similar in reading a biography of Jaco. My theory knowledge is very basic. Could anyone please point me to where I could get started in learning about harmony within this context? Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newfoundfreedom Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 Can't help you I'm afraid. Everything I've ever heard Jaco play sounds like a bunch of random notes with zero musicality to me. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mario_buoninfante Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 (edited) I think a Jazz Harmony course is what you would be looking for. There are few online, SBL included. In general I'd pick one that is for bassists, that means you'd probably be learning and analysing songs from a bassist point of view. I haven't done a proper Jazz Harmony course yet, but I have done a bit of "classical harmony" when I was studying at the Conservatoire, but afaik in a jazz context it'd be a lot to do with learning/breaking down/analysing jazz standards. And I think that is awesome. Despite some standards do sound quite "dated", the harmony behind them is still quite relevant. Edited January 10, 2023 by mario_buoninfante 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKenrick Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 This might not seem like the answer that you want, but... A lot of people, bass players in particular, struggle to understand harmony because they don't have a solid understanding of intervals (how two notes relate to each other) and basic triads first. It's going to be hard to get your head around 7th chord harmony and the devices that Marcus Miller is talking about if you skip over the much less exciting foundation work. A good starting point is to look up the intervals of the major scale (major 2nd, major 3rd, perfect 4th, perfect 5th, major 6th, major 7th) and understand how those intervals are constructed (the musical spelling and grammar, if you like), how they're played on the bass, and how each one sounds. You don't necessarily need a resource that's aimed at bassists, and it can be helpful to work on some of this stuff at a piano/keyboard as it can provide an easier way to visualise certain things compared to the fretboard. 9 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uk_lefty Posted January 11, 2023 Author Share Posted January 11, 2023 10 hours ago, TKenrick said: This might not seem like the answer that you want, but... This is the answer I needed! Thank you. Weirdly my six year old is learning piano and I'm learning to read the clefs by helping her learn piano! If she sticks at it I will be recommending to learn theory when she's older. In the meantime I'll find some time to get hold of some resources. Like you, I always think of theory as like grammar. Having tired to learn foreign languages you just can't learn vocabulary because the grammar is what stitches it all together and makes it flow and make sense. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKenrick Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 1 hour ago, uk_lefty said: Like you, I always think of theory as like grammar. Having tired to learn foreign languages you just can't learn vocabulary because the grammar is what stitches it all together and makes it flow and make sense. Exactly. A lot of people parrot the very tired 'music is a language' analogy but then don't make any real effort to actually learn the language in a meaningful way. No point learning fancy words if you don't know what they mean or understand when to use them. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FDC484950 Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 On 10/01/2023 at 10:09, Newfoundfreedom said: Can't help you I'm afraid. Everything I've ever heard Jaco play sounds like a bunch of random notes with zero musicality to me. You trot this out every time Jaco is mentioned. Maybe just move along and resist the temptation to hit reply, it’s not like it’s adding anything to the question the OP asked. And you’re wrong. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louisthebass Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 Rick Beato has done a few videos on basic music theory on YouTube, definitely worth checking out. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newfoundfreedom Posted January 13, 2023 Share Posted January 13, 2023 (edited) On 12/01/2023 at 13:56, FDC484950 said: You trot this out every time Jaco is mentioned. Maybe just move along and resist the temptation to hit reply, it’s not like it’s adding anything to the question the OP asked. And you’re wrong. Oh the irony. If you don't like my post. Just move along. And you're wrong about me being wrong. Opinions are never wrong. They're just opinions. To you (and probably many others) Jaco might be the best bass player on earth. To me it just sounds like a load of utterly pretentious noodly crap. Edited January 13, 2023 by Newfoundfreedom 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FDC484950 Posted January 13, 2023 Share Posted January 13, 2023 (edited) Fair enough. Thank goodness for the ignore option. Edited January 13, 2023 by FDC484950 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huw Foster Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 On 13/01/2023 at 14:33, Newfoundfreedom said: Oh the irony. If you don't like my post. Just move along. And you're wrong about me being wrong. Opinions are never wrong. They're just opinions. To you (and probably many others) Jaco might be the best bass player on earth. To me it just sounds like a load of utterly pretentious noodly crap. Good for you for having an opinion. However, the OP asked a question about theory, and your response added nothing to the discussion in this context. 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wellsyboy Posted February 7, 2023 Share Posted February 7, 2023 On 12/01/2023 at 14:54, louisthebass said: Rick Beato has done a few videos on basic music theory on YouTube, definitely worth checking out. And he does a very good book on it too! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay bass Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 Check your local college they often run a music college start at grade 1 theory of music and work your way up it will soon start to make more sense, and help with your understanding of intervals , harmonies etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbobothy Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 Joe Hubbard has a Functional Harmony book that is pretty interesting https://www.joehubbardbass.com/functional-harmonic-concepts/ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 Start with scales, chords and modes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louisthebass Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 3 hours ago, jimbobothy said: Joe Hubbard has a Functional Harmony book that is pretty interesting https://www.joehubbardbass.com/functional-harmonic-concepts/ Got that book, very thorough (as all of Joe Hubbard's books are) - a lot of study that will keep you going for years... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GremlinAndy Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 (edited) I’ve been taking music lessons (bass centric) for about 18 months now, and I’m loving it. I’m 63 and wish I’d done this much earlier in life tbh. I primarily wanted to demystify the language of music so that I could at least understand what some of the YouTubers like Rick Beato, David Bennett and Doug Helvering were explaining in their breakdowns of familiar songs. Here I am now, with a modest understanding of the inner workings of it. You might find the subject of ‘voice leading’ interesting. It’s more appropriate for piano because of the physical layout of a keyboard, as opposed to a guitar/bass neck, but I found this video kind of eye opening. (It’s not really 100% about vocals) Don’t get me wrong, hardcore theory is still mostly over my head. …I dunno your level of theory understanding, but for me, watching breakdowns of songs has become a passion. To the point where I barely turn on the telly, and just subscribe to these for my nightly entertainment now. My point is, even after a lifetime of playing by ear, and being a self taught bassist, I‘m getting so much more pleasure from music now I understand the basics of the language. You might start a journey of discovery, like me, by just subscribing to one or more of the guys mentioned above. Kudos to @TKenrick, because it was his post that resonated with me enough to want to share my experiences! Edited February 8, 2023 by GremlinAndy Some deletions. 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IamGroot Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 Perhaps a different approach, but perhaps listen to some music first and let the theory follow. My first recommenation is always Mile Davis's "Kind of Blue". Davis led a sextet featuring saxophonists John Coltrane and Julian "Cannonball" Adderley, pianist Bill Evans, bassist Paul Chambers, and drummer Jimmy Cobb. Pianist Wynton Kelly appears on one track – "Freddie Freeloader" and plays a memorable solo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javasound Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 Several people I know have talked about this favourably https://www.amazon.co.uk/Edlys-Music-Theory-Practical-People/dp/0966161661 Disclaimer - Ive not read it myself, but I respect the option of the people I know who have done so ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKenrick Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 22 hours ago, GremlinAndy said: You might find the subject of ‘voice leading’ interesting. It’s more appropriate for piano because of the physical layout of a keyboard, as opposed to a guitar/bass neck, but I found this video kind of eye opening. (It’s not really 100% about vocals) Voice leading is hugely important for bass players to understand, because it's one of the main things that separates good players from great players; if you can find the path of least resistance through a chord progression using inversions then all sorts of interesting things can happen in your basslines. 22 hours ago, GremlinAndy said: My point is, even after a lifetime of playing by ear, and being a self taught bassist, I‘m getting so much more pleasure from music now I understand the basics of the language. You might start a journey of discovery, like me, by just subscribing to one or more of the guys mentioned above. This is great to hear. There's a certain mindset out there that makes people think that learning theory* will destroy all creativity, but I think the reverse is true; I'm endlessly fascinated by pulling apart the music that I love to find out how it works. There's a great monologue by the late scientist Richard Feynman from an interview called The Pleasure of Finding Things Out that says it much better than I ever could. *FWIW, I dislike the word theory, it's a dead thing that belongs in dusty libraries. Harmony - the living, breathing, application of the rules of music - is much more preferable. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itu Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 33 minutes ago, TKenrick said: There's a certain mindset out there that makes people think that learning theory* will destroy all creativity, but I think the reverse is true... There's a certain mindset out there that makes people think that learning your tools will destroy all creativity, but I think, no, I know that it opens lots of new territories. Go further, or stay home. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reggaebass Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 I tend dip in and out of theory , I would like to have more time to get deeper into it, I only really know basic, one thing I do when I’m learning a new Bassline is try to break it down and see what scale or pentatonic etc it is, I think it’s good to know the foundation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mario_buoninfante Posted February 10, 2023 Share Posted February 10, 2023 10 hours ago, TKenrick said: Voice leading is hugely important for bass players to understand, because it's one of the main things that separates good players from great players; if you can find the path of least resistance through a chord progression using inversions then all sorts of interesting things can happen in your basslines. Learning how to walk the bass will give you that and I genuinely believe that there is no substitute for that since it requires: 1. Improvisational skills - walking bass lines are created on the spot 2. A level of understanding of harmony 3. Good rhythmic skills 4. Stamina - walking the bass is not that easy 5. A good melodic sense in order to make sinuous bass lines that effortlessly move between chords 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mario_buoninfante Posted February 10, 2023 Share Posted February 10, 2023 11 hours ago, TKenrick said: FWIW, I dislike the word theory, it's a dead thing that belongs in dusty libraries. Harmony - the living, breathing, application of the rules of music - is much more preferable. At the risk of sounging a bit too stiff, I think that harmony alone is not the right term to use. Harmony is one of the pillars in music together with melody and rhythm and refers to something specific. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IamGroot Posted February 10, 2023 Share Posted February 10, 2023 (edited) There is a saying that music theory is a tool to assist us when we have problems understanding what we are hearing. As we improve our understaning of what we hear, we rely less on music theory. Many highly skilled jazz musicians say to learn theory to improve your playing, then forget it. Edited February 10, 2023 by IamGroot cant type 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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