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Double Bassist Trying Cello


gypsyjazzer
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Hi to those who play cello--advice needed.

 

I am a double bassist about to try a cello. The cello to be tuned in fourths--as DB. A few questions:

 

a) Have you tried a set of D'addario 'Helicore Fourths' made for DB tuning? Did you like them? Good for arco & pizz?

b) Have you used an Octave pedal on the cello to get the DB lower range? If so which Octave pedal did you use? Done a bit of research on the Octave pedal and seems a lot to choose from--as no experience of them.

c) Does the DB bow work OK on the cello--do I need to get a cello bow?

 

Many thanks.

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A and B I have no experience with, but as for C, a double bass bow will be too heavy for all but the lowest string. (This is going of CGDA tuning). After years of playing double bass, even playing an A string with a cello bow is a delicate process for me - we're just conditioned to be somewhat heavy-handed coming from the bass.

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I have played violin/viola (properly), cello (semi-properly) and DB (badly). To me, despite being upright, cello feels more like violin and viola in terms of playing and required precision of both hands. Gareth is spot on re the bow, a DB would be like trying to mow the front lawn with a combined harvester.

 

I know I'm going to regret asking, but if you want DB range from an upright stringed instrument, why the hell not just play a DB? If you are after an easier to play instrument, get a smaller DB! A cello with an octaver probably won't get you close unless you are looking for a specific and likely quite synthetic effect (i.e., you'll loose a lot of the character of the cello itself). 

 

I saw a vid a while back of a hipster band in which the bass was played on cello (in the video) and remember thinking, "that's not what he played on the track" :) 

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I'm primarily a cellist. A cello is not a small double bass. A double bass bow is much shorter than a cello one, is much heavier, and has a much deeper frog. Even with an overhand bow hold which is superficially the same as for cello (i.e. rather than German / viol hold) the technique is different.

 

I'm not sure how cello strings would respond to being tuned in 4ths rather than 5ths. The tension on the strings is going to be 'off' since the C will be E, G will be A, D is unchanged, and A is G. I suppose it is a form of scordatura tuning...

 

What will be peculiar is the normal 'positions' on the cello are not going to do what you would expect. In standard tuning, sliding to 4th position with the thumb at the shoulder means your 1st finger is playing a 5th up, i.e. the next string. It's a bit like a bass viol I suppose, that's tuned DGCFAD 

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IIRC when Tony Levin recorded and toured with a cello (albeit a Steinberger one) he tuned it in 4ths, as normal tuning kept messing with his head. How this would affect an acoustic instrument is beyond my ken.

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The D'addario 'Helicore Fourths' made for DB tuning are tensioned properly for the tuning they will be in. They will be an octave higher. GJazzer, I know you already know this, I am just clariyfying it for the thread.

 

You will need a different bow but you will be ASTONISHED at how much easier it is to draw a note out of a cello with a bow.

 

I looked into it once but never actually did it.

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I started on cello when I was 8. I did not hit the DB until 15. I taught cello for 12 years after leaving Uni. Going from 4ths to 5ths was OK for a long time. But the less I did it, the harder it became. It makes my head melt now. 

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Going from 5ths on violin to 4ths on bass did my head in for a long time. Picking up a violin now feels very strange, like I feel I should be able to play it, but the residual muscle memory isn't near enough.

 

I learned to read bass clef some years on from switching to bass. That took a lot of effort to forget treble clef too.

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Many thanks for all your replies--much appreciated. I'm to 'old' to get into cello tuning--not enough hours in the day. Wish I had taken up 5th tuning years ago. I will get a cello and tune in fourths. If it's good enough for Ray Brown / Oscar Pettiford--------------------------------------------

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13 hours ago, owen said:

I started on cello when I was 8. I did not hit the DB until 15. I taught cello for 12 years after leaving Uni. Going from 4ths to 5ths was OK for a long time. But the less I did it, the harder it became. It makes my head melt now. 

 

It's funny, I was taught music practice and theory on the violin, so learned 5th tuning. I moved to guitar in my mid-teens, then bass, then double bass, and picked up 4th tuning easily. I started playing mandolin 10 or so years ago and really struggled with 5th tuning, really struggled. Then I picked up a fiddle again about 6 years back having not played to 30 odd years, and surprisingly 5ths felt completely natural on that instrument. But importantly for me at the time, my learning on mandolin was accelerated in large part by my playing more fiddle, thinking harder about positions, shapes and progressions as I did. What has been great is that I was classically trained on fiddle so very much orchestral in style, but having transferred my understanding of 5th tuning from violin to mandolin, as I started to learn bluegrass on the latter I took that back to fiddle. I'm no bluegrass fiddle player in real terms (I can prove it), but I'm able for the first time in my life to play music I actually like on the fiddle, e.g., Old Crow Medicine Show style bluegrass. 

 

But dare I say it, I think we could all learn a lot from guitarists also. As bass players we tend to be quite rigid around tuning but most of the guitarists I play with play comfortable in a range of different open tunings depending on the song, and while some use different instruments, some simply retune really quickly. Perhaps - and I don't know - part of the problem is that bass strings respond less well to being tuned away from their intended pitch than guitar strings, but either way, varying open tunings often allows guitarists to play stuff they couldn't play on standard tuning, and also aids the creative process by subverting their expectations of what a certain shape or progression is going to sound like.

 

I guess I'm saying to the OP that I think it's good to mess with tuning, and that learning a new instrument in its standard tuning might send you on a journey that learning it in a tuning you're already familiar with might not.  

 

Good luck either way 👍

 

PS Owen, I've just remembered I still owe you a P-Retro.......!!!!!!!!

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I was a cellist first and a bassist much later.  It would be really weird to play a cello in 4ths for me.  What fingering to use? If you do simandl (as I do n a dB) your fingers may not fit.  If you do 1f1f ( as I do on an e bass) it should work ok with the option of getting a 4th by string crossing or fingering but if you're not a 1f1f player it's another hurdle to jump.

 

Get a cheap cello bow, it will work better than a good bass bow.

 

I've tried a pickup and octaver on a cello.  It wasn't good.  But that was an old analogue boss oc2 .. a modern digital one should drop the pitch ok, though the timbre still won't be that of a dB.  Try a TC electronics sub and up, very clean sound.

 

The cello repertoire is a lot easier to play in 5ths ... But its not clear what you do want to play.  Double bass parts with less finger stretching?

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11 hours ago, NickA said:

I was a cellist first and a bassist much later.  It would be really weird to play a cello in 4ths for me.  What fingering to use? If you do simandl (as I do n a dB) your fingers may not fit.  If you do 1f1f ( as I do on an e bass) it should work ok with the option of getting a 4th by string crossing or fingering but if you're not a 1f1f player it's another hurdle to jump.

 

Get a cheap cello bow, it will work better than a good bass bow.

 

I've tried a pickup and octaver on a cello.  It wasn't good.  But that was an old analogue boss oc2 .. a modern digital one should drop the pitch ok, though the timbre still won't be that of a dB.  Try a TC electronics sub and up, very clean sound.

 

The cello repertoire is a lot easier to play in 5ths ... But its not clear what you do want to play.  Double bass parts with less finger stretching?

 

Yes, all good points. Another problem with 4ths is that you lose so much of the range of the cello, and that's one of the things that makes the cello such an extraordinary instrument. So if you're tuning an 8ve up from DB you're losing most of the lowest pitch string in standard cello tuning, which would be an odd decision if you're looking for it to play a bass-like role? 

 

Will it sound good? There's plenty of stuff about the more common use of violin tuning on viola and vice versa, and the jury is very much out, the idea being the dimensions/volume of the body is optimised for the normal range of the instrument and moving too far away from that reduces tonal quality. 

 

Looking forward to hearing how it goes 👍 

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On 12/08/2021 at 16:26, ezbass said:

IIRC when Tony Levin recorded and toured with a cello (albeit a Steinberger one) he tuned it in 4ths, as normal tuning kept messing with his head. How this would affect an acoustic instrument is beyond my ken.

I wonder how he copes with a 12 string Chapman Stick... or is he tuning the Bass side in 4ths as well? 🤔

 

I, too can see how it'd work with an electric instrument. It should be alright on a regular cello, as you're condensing the range of the instrument; losing bottom end from the (new) E down to the (original) C and from the top (G as opposed to A)

 

Can't comment on bows, I'm afraid. 

 

As for octave related fx, there's two issues at stake. Both related to the harmonic content of the cello's tone- how well will it sense the correct pitch, and what will it reproduce . The risk is that it'll just underpin the original sound with a dull monotone pitch an octave down, not a DB sound. How that would work with Arco, I have no idea,  but I doubt it'd capture the bowing dynamics either. 

Edited by Lfalex v1.1
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On 14/08/2021 at 22:08, Lfalex v1.1 said:

The risk is that it'll just underpin the original sound with a dull monotone pitch an octave down, not a DB sound.

..was the issue with my analogue octaver; but a digital (polyphonic) one should just halve the frequency of the whole waveform. 

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