Shop Discounts

[grossey]

Hi,
OK, in the current economic climate, what do you guys think is a resonable amount to expect a shop to discount a Bass?
ie. asking Mr Shopkeeper, "what is your best price for cash"?

Lets assume, Bass is new, £500, about the same as his competetors "ticket" price, in a independant but large (exclusively) guitar/bass shop?

What are your opinions?

[Machines]

I'd go for 10% in normal circumstances... not sure about now.

[Stylon Pilson]

Maybe I'm being a dumb schmuck, but if I go into an independent music shop and I like a bass, then I pay the price that they've put on the ticket. I don't offer them 10% less just because I can, because I want them to still be in business in a year's time.

Either you like the bass enough to pay £500 for it, or you don't.

S.P.

[bumnote]

Discount for cash is not really a benefit these days in a shop, depends on the shop. Theres always the inference that by paying cash, the retailer will somehow gain by not declaring it in someway.

It wont work in a big store unless an employee is on the fiddle, and in a small store, depending on the system there are other ways of achieving the same end. What the retailer will save is the cost of a credit card transaction, depends on the retailer card arrangement, used to be around 1.5%, dont know if it still is, but on the other hand the retailer has all the hassle of taking the money to the bank.

A better means is to do your homework. Whats the best price you can see advertised. If a retailer already has heavily discounted, he is unlikely to discount much after that. How long has it been in stock? is there one down the road, £50 off

Is it todays hot item, if he thinks it will sell tomorrow for full price, why would he discount it.

I am close to a retailer who wouldnt discount at all a squier 50s vibe. I got it somewhere else, and last I saw, the one I wanted was still there.

Its their right to sell for what they want, and your right to buy where you like, in the middle there is compromise.

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='Stylon Pilson' post='413147' date='Feb 18 2009, 03:28 PM']Either you like the bass enough to pay £500 for it, or you don't.[/quote]
Exactly. I'm a retailer (although not in the music sector), and there's little that irks me more than customers saying, "And what sort of discount can you give me on that price?" They usually end up on the end of a blank stare and an enquiry (polite, of course ) as to why they should get a discount. I have yet to hear a logical response.

It's a truly sh*tty time to be in retail, and if you like the shop and want them to carry on trading, they need all the profit margin they can scrape together at the moment. I doubt the margin is huge on basses (or at least on big brand basses -- boutique basses probably have a bit more margin on them), so 10% off the retail price could be a [i]huge[/i] whack off their actual profit. Also, prices are rising at the moment, and they could already have absorbed a cost rise on that product to remain competitive. That's assuming the price is actually competitive -- there'll be small retailers who can't stay competitive because of the economies of scale. Even when they're more expensive than the competition, if you like the shop, if they give you good service, and if they know their stuff, go with them when you can.

Of course, they could be so desperate for sales at the moment that they'd give you the discount to secure the sale, but I couldn't honestly put another retailer in that position. This is the time to play nice, or there'll be a lot less choice around this time next year.

[hubrad]

I work in an independent music shop. Ok, times are tight and we always need to keep selling in order to still be here next year (well said Stylon Pilson).
If you build up a relationship with a shop they are more likely to do give you some recognition. As Bumnote said, "in the middle there is a compromise"; there's nothing like a total stranger going in for the hard haggle to elicit the response "just pop round to Tesco and see if they'll take 20p less for that pack of biscuits for me"!
As a couple of our reps have recently said - selling at 'old' prices is an option, but we then have to pay the 'new' price for the next thing. I'd quite like to kepp my job if possible; I fair enjoy it.
The worst thing to offer is Amex card - costs us both a mint!
Best of luck to us all.
HUGH

Edited February 18, 2009 by hubrad

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='hubrad' post='413189' date='Feb 18 2009, 03:58 PM']If you build up a relationship with a shop they are more likely to do give you some recognition.[/quote]
+1
I only give discounts (and always on [i]my[/i] terms, never when it's asked for ) when I know those people are going to be coming back for more.

[quote name='hubrad' post='413189' date='Feb 18 2009, 03:58 PM']The worst thing to offer is Amex card - costs us both a mint![/quote]
+1 and an "amen" to that. My heart sinks when I see that little blue & white square... and it's getting much more common now that Lloyds TSB are offering an Amex credit card.

[simon1964]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='413174' date='Feb 18 2009, 03:47 PM']Exactly. I'm a retailer (although not in the music sector), and there's little that irks me more than customers saying, "And what sort of discount can you give me on that price?" They usually end up on the end of a blank stare and an enquiry (polite, of course ) as to why they should get a discount. I have yet to hear a logical response.[/quote]

My Dad was a music retailer for a lot of years, so I understand where you're coming from, and I can understand retailers refusing a discount.

On the other hand, if you asked my why I should get a discount, I would simply say "because I'm prepared to pay £x, and if you're prepared to take it, you have a sale". I have to confess that I have hardly ever paid ticket price on a new bass/amp. A couple of years ago Sound Control in Birmingham knocked £150 off a new Corvette $$ for me - and I hadn't asked for such a large discount, but simply asked what their best price was. They may not be a good example, of course, given their demise!

Edited February 18, 2009 by simon1964

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='413216' date='Feb 18 2009, 04:17 PM']+1
I only give discounts (and always on [i]my[/i] terms, never when it's asked for ) when I know those people are going to be coming back for more.


+1 and an "amen" to that. My heart sinks when I see that little blue & white square... and it's getting much more common now that Lloyds TSB are offering an Amex credit card. [/quote]

I have Amex. It's useful having a card no-one accepts.

[Stylon Pilson]

[quote name='MacDaddy' post='413255' date='Feb 18 2009, 04:32 PM']I have Amex. It's useful having a card no-one accepts.[/quote]

+42.

S.P.

[peteb]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='413174' date='Feb 18 2009, 03:47 PM']Exactly. I'm a retailer (although not in the music sector), and there's little that irks me more than customers saying, "And what sort of discount can you give me on that price?" They usually end up on the end of a blank stare and an enquiry (polite, of course ) as to why they should get a discount. I have yet to hear a logical response.[/quote]
The response is, my friend, once I have tried out the bass comprehensively and made clear my intention to buy, why should I buy from you and not ring round every other music shop in the country / trawl the internet for a better price!

The mark up on big name basses is quite considerable (or at least it used to be a few years ago) so there is normally a bit of room to manoeuvre! I appreciate that the low volume of sales these days is unfortunately putting a lot of shops out of business, but then again, the money being paid at gigs is tending to fall as pubs / venues struggle in the present economic climate and you would be a fool not to strike the best deal that you reasonably can!

[Dubs]

I thought it’s pretty standard to get up to about 10% discount in a music shop on instruments. I pretty much never settle for the price on the tag – if you don’t ask you don’t get. I wouldn’t expect much discount on cheap things (under £50), but I once got £20 off a £150 second hand guitar in Sound Control about 3 years ago. When I bought a cheap acoustic from a guitar shop in Derby it had a few very minor marks on it and the strings sounded a but dull, so I asked if there was anything the guy could do about the price to reflect this – he threw in a couple of packs of Martin acoustic strings and a £20 gig bag for free, and the guitar only cost £100 in the first place. Generally I don’t ask for money off effects though cos I’ll just accept the high street mark-up or buy online – instruments are different I think, as I’d never buy something new without trying it in person first.

I reckon it’s pretty f***ed up if retailers aren’t prepared to negotiate a little on price, let alone in the current economic climate, and especially on something like musical instruments. I think that could be a pretty good way of losing future custom and spreading a bad reputation about your business. Would you walk into a car dealership and accept the price in the window of a used car or accept your first insurance quote? You’re a mug if you do…

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='benwhiteuk' post='413588' date='Feb 18 2009, 08:26 PM']Would you walk into a car dealership and accept the price in the window of a used car or accept your first insurance quote? You’re a mug if you do…[/quote]
Er, that'd be me officially classed a mug, then.

I always just renew my insurance (never compare quotes) when that time rolls around, and the last time I bought a used car, I paid the price on the window. I completely accept that I'm one of the least savvy people to have ever walked the earth.

[XB26354]

[quote name='benwhiteuk' post='413588' date='Feb 18 2009, 08:26 PM']I thought it’s pretty standard to get up to about 10% discount in a music shop on instruments. I pretty much never settle for the price on the tag – if you don’t ask you don’t get. I wouldn’t expect much discount on cheap things (under £50), but I once got £20 off a £150 second hand guitar in Sound Control about 3 years ago. When I bought a cheap acoustic from a guitar shop in Derby it had a few very minor marks on it and the strings sounded a but dull, so I asked if there was anything the guy could do about the price to reflect this – he threw in a couple of packs of Martin acoustic strings and a £20 gig bag for free, and the guitar only cost £100 in the first place. Generally I don’t ask for money off effects though cos I’ll just accept the high street mark-up or buy online – instruments are different I think, as I’d never buy something new without trying it in person first.

I reckon it’s pretty f***ed up if retailers aren’t prepared to negotiate a little on price, let alone in the current economic climate, and especially on something like musical instruments. I think that could be a pretty good way of losing future custom and spreading a bad reputation about your business. Would you walk into a car dealership and accept the price in the window of a used car or accept your first insurance quote? You’re a mug if you do…[/quote]
The logical conclusion in the current climate will be that the only place you'll be able to buy a bass will be online, or the odd cheap squier in a general music store. I can see both sides - musicians are often a bit short of money so every penny counts. At the same time if retailers are only making £50 profit here and there they'll be out of business soon enough. I see no problem in getting a bit off a big ticket item as the margin is usually bigger percentage wise, but ask for 20% off a £200 bass and just maybe next time you visit the shop it'll be gone. Then who's the mug?

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='XB26354' post='413625' date='Feb 18 2009, 09:19 PM']The logical conclusion in the current climate will be that the only place you'll be able to buy a bass will be online, or the odd cheap squier in a general music store. I can see both sides - musicians are often a bit short of money so every penny counts. At the same time if retailers are only making £50 profit here and there they'll be out of business soon enough. I see no problem in getting a bit off a big ticket item as the margin is usually bigger percentage wise, but ask for 20% off a £200 bass and just maybe next time you visit the shop it'll be gone. Then who's the mug?[/quote]

Looks like the Basschat market place is gonna thrive...

[Dubs]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='413615' date='Feb 18 2009, 08:53 PM']Er, that'd be me officially classed a mug, then.

I always just renew my insurance (never compare quotes) when that time rolls around, and the last time I bought a used car, I paid the price on the window. I completely accept that I'm one of the least savvy people to have ever walked the earth.[/quote]

I'm not shocked, but I'm amazed that people just renew their insurance. For the sake of a 10 minute phone call you would guarantee to make a considerable saving.

[Dubs]

[quote name='XB26354' post='413625' date='Feb 18 2009, 09:19 PM']The logical conclusion in the current climate will be that the only place you'll be able to buy a bass will be online, or the odd cheap squier in a general music store. I can see both sides - musicians are often a bit short of money so every penny counts. At the same time if retailers are only making £50 profit here and there they'll be out of business soon enough. I see no problem in getting a bit off a big ticket item as the margin is usually bigger percentage wise, but ask for 20% off a £200 bass and just maybe next time you visit the shop it'll be gone. Then who's the mug?[/quote]

Who’s asking for 20%?

I completely agree with you that times are hard at the moment for both retailers and customers alike, but the customer is likely to negotiate on the price of instruments and the retailer should be expecting it. I was trying to make the point that if something is considerably marked up and somewhat overpriced in a high street shop, the customer is a complete mug for not even having a go at negotiating, and even if the price seems alright it could be worth a go at asking for a bit off. In all honesty, a lot of people might try and negotiate on the price of the majority of things sold in shops, but I wouldn't walk into Sainsbury's and negotiate at the till though; that's a completely different situation. If a retailer of musical instrument doesn’t want to negotiate on their prices at all then they’re in the wrong business. Is it not just standard to negotiate on the price?

[XB26354]

It depends on the make and model. Most manufacturer's margins are better the more expensive you go so retailers can offer more off the higher end models. I don't think it is quite the same as insurance where you can shop around a lot for a bespoke quote with the cover you need. A bass is a manufactured item that cost a certain amount to make. The manufacturer makes his cut on the trade price and the retailer gets their margin from the selling price (ex VAT). I used to work in a music shop years ago and most people buying digital pianos wanted 15-20% off (not even for cash!). Guess what happened to the shop? I don't advocate paying the retail price for anything if you can get it cheaper. However, take a Squier. Some online retailers are doing models in this range for just over £200. They're making next to nothing on them. Shops feel pressured to price match or else they lose out on the sale, but they make little or no profit so it doesn't take a genius to work out that eventually the owner will give up or the shop will go under. This is what has been happening in MI retail in the UK for the last 15 years. You can't try basses out on an online store...

[Hamster]

I usually just ask them what their best price is and go from there. As has been said, it's useful if you live near a decent shop and are a regular customer!

[YouMa]

To be honest i would only go to a shop if i felt sorry for them.

[skankdelvar]

Depends on the shop. Big chains will probably be getting a bigger discount from the distributor than the smaller guys. So if I was buying from a big chain, I'd be pushing harder for a discount than I would in an independent. And in any case, it's the biggies that have some of the most inflated advertised prices.

Smaller operations need encouragement and support. The trade-off is that, hopefully, you get better service, better product knowledge and a higher commitment to customer satisfaction.

If I had a specific purchase in mind, I'd always check out the market rate before I went into a shop. If it's madly high, they're just further down the list. And if they advertise POA (price on application), I'm definitely not going there.

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='413846' date='Feb 19 2009, 01:58 AM']And if they advertise POA (price on application), I'm definitely not going there.[/quote]

+1

[bumnote]

I try not to buy new these days, Id rather have used, and sell it on for a similar price to what I paid.

I got an incredibly good deal on a 20th anniversary stingray, and a 5 string ray a few years ago because a local shop was prepared to order one in and take a small profit as a handling fee, but I think things may have probably changed more recently.

I also upset, and got upset by everyones favourite bass shop in Denmark street. I negotiated a very good price on a purple stirlng with the gallery, and when I went up to collect it I had a mooch around and saw the same bass in that shop.

On the basis if you dont ask you dont get, I asked him if he could better however much it was at the time and he said no one would sell me a stirling for that price. I told him that martin would and he went off on one, called me a liar, and then phoned the gallery.

I left, collected my stirling, and have never been back since.

An effective way of getting a discount sometimes is to ask for something to be thrown in. Case, gig bag, strings, whatever.

A set of string is effectively a £20 discount to you, but costs the shop £10

Both sides save money.

[hubrad]

[quote name='peteb' post='413527' date='Feb 18 2009, 07:47 PM']The response is, my friend, once I have tried out the bass comprehensively and made clear my intention to buy, why should I buy from you and not ring round every other music shop in the country / trawl the internet for a better price![/quote]
See all the threads including comments like 'I tried 7 Les Pauls before I found one I liked'

[LukeFRC]

I think its always good to haggle a wee bit, but at the same time not expect anything off.
From a conversation with the bass guy which he let slip soundcontrol were buying in USA fender for about half what they were selling them for. Obviously they have tax, VAT, rent and the wages for the muppet stood infront of me to pay too.
I actually would be happier paying more or less the ticket price but getting free stuff, or if the retailer has his brain switched on discount on some other item. Then everybody is happy.