'Improving live tone' thread

[jonnythenotes]

If your in a corner, or have space behind your cab, get all the soft cases you can...cab covers, drum bags etc and fill the corner out... It stops the corner or wall behind you acting as a resonator.... It's free and very effective....

[Mykesbass]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1486648897' post='3233524']
Useless facts. . . . In the early 70's Nils Lofgren used to jump off the drum riser into a trampoline and somersault across the stage.

edit Whilst playing. . . .
[/quote]

Not useless at all - hence the title of his album

[blue]

[quote name='ChunkyMunky' timestamp='1486627300' post='3233285']
I'm eyeing up an isolation riser for whatever bass cabinet I'm going to buy. It's an initiative to improve my live bass tone but I'm also thinking on how else I can improve it all? Manipulating the natural acoustics of a room? Shaping the tone to mesh around the kick drum? What do you fine creatures do to ensure a great bass tone live? I'd love to hear your suggestions and try them out.
[/quote]

Sounds like a good idea, you must be playing some big gigs.

Blue

[blue]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1486635602' post='3233374']
I find the best way to get a great sound is to always play in exactly the same place in the same room using the same bass through the same rig at the same volume.

As soon as I try playing in a different pub it all goes to sh*t.
[/quote]

Bingo, this is an on going challenge. I saw The Stones play our Marcus Ampitheater and Daryl's sound was muddy and boomy.

Blue

[blue]

How many of us check our onstage sound to our house sound?

Blue

[DangerDan]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1486666618' post='3233731']
How many of us check our onstage sound to our house sound?

Blue
[/quote]

The only problem with checking FOH sound during soundcheck is that an empty room doesn't sound the same as one full of punters. There comes a point where you just have to trust the soundguy.

[tinyd]

One thing to bear in mind is that the guitars / keys could be more bassy at higher volumes so you might need them to adjust their EQ a bit to give you more room at the bottom end. A nice 'warm' guitar sound at lower volumes can sometimes end up contributing to that nasty low-end mush in a gig setting (see the million-and-one threads about general volume for more details)...

[mikel]

[quote name='DangerDan' timestamp='1486722721' post='3234059']
The only problem with checking FOH sound during soundcheck is that an empty room doesn't sound the same as one full of punters.[b] There comes a point where you just have to trust the soundguy.[/b]
[/quote]

Unless you use the same sound guy every time how do you know he is producing just the bass sound YOU like out front? Unless you require a generic tone then you are ok.

[TimR]

I'd say if there is a sound guy you wouldn't be having this problem in the first place.

Isn't this issue only present when you are trying to use your backline to provide FOH sound?

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1486725460' post='3234095']
I'd say if there is a sound guy you wouldn't be having this problem in the first place.

Isn't this issue only present when you are trying to use your backline to provide FOH sound?
[/quote]

+1

In ears on stage is the best on stage sound that also doesn't ruin the FOH mix followed by small amps. Once you go backline for foh it's a compromise.

[DangerDan]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1486725267' post='3234092']


Unless you use the same sound guy every time how do you know he is producing just the bass sound YOU like out front? Unless you require a generic tone then you are ok.
[/quote]

Well, you don't, and can't. Unless you are going to step out into the crowd mid gig and then give your adjustments to the soundguy mid set, its really down to them as to how you will sound. It's their venue, they will know how it reacts to the sound we are trying to play out in it. They have to decide how to blend you with the rest of the band. What sounds good to you won't necessarily sound good FOH, when the place is full and the band are playing at volume.

[No lust in Jazz]

We use the same sound crew for all of our gigs, I use quality gear and I'll send them a DI signal from (usually) a Fender derived bass (usually) played with a plectrum - if the soundman can't mix this for the overall good of the music, then he's the wrong man for us.

It's pointless me being hung up on my own onstage tone when playing live or indeed rehearsing as I use earplugs

[DangerDan]

[quote name='No lust in Jazz' timestamp='1486726743' post='3234115']
We use the same sound crew for all of our gigs.
[/quote]

For me, this is what it comes down to. Occasionally i have had the luxury of touring with our own soundguy, that's the best way to get the best live tone. Too bad that's not the norm for me

[EliasMooseblaster]

[quote name='DangerDan' timestamp='1486722721' post='3234059']
The only problem with checking FOH sound during soundcheck is that an empty room doesn't sound the same as one full of punters. There comes a point where you just have to trust the soundguy.
[/quote]

It is for this reason that I have started chalking markers on the floor to dictate where punters must stand.
Strange resonance from one corner of the room? Two or three large people in there, please.
Smaller people? Near the front, but please don't stand in the line of the guitarist's speaker lest you limit his projection to the back of the room.

Punters are obviously not allowed to move from their designated spots during a song. If anybody wants to go the bar or needs the loo, they'll have to wait, otherwise I throw down my bass and scream at the offending punters for denigrating the music by interfering with our finely-honed live sound, and could they not have waited [i]just ten more minutes[/i] for our introspective musical contemplation upon the majesty of Andromeda to finish? Clearly not. Hurry up and we'll start again once you're back from the gents' and standing in your chalk circle. [i]Da capo, [/i]lads, [i]da capo.[/i] And a-one, two, three...

[bassjim]

Some rooms/venues/ stages you just cant win. All very depressing. No solution to it really just compromises.

Out of the places I play on a regular basis there are a few that are brilliantly plug and play. Nice set and forget.If only they were all like this.

The ones that are trouble where I have found a good working compromise I usually take a picture of exactly where the cabs are and a close up of the amp eq and volume. At least its a good place to start when returning.

The ones where its bad start to finish are very depressing.

I have a Gamma pad and apart from a boomy raised hollow stage it doesn't really do a lot when the room is a concrete/wooden floored box with lots of windows. Handy to take along to somewhere new though just in case.

Eq wise: its so subjective depending on the music you play and if you are in a loud band or reasonable volume. How close you are to the drummer /other players all have an effect. A noisy guitarist with a bass and treble boost can ruin it for you. A shed building drummer can ruin a great tone. And so on. Once it goes past a certain volume it all goes bad.

Some places have improved ten fold once an audience is in front of us compared to the empty room at set up. Its the regular experience that tells you what to expect as and when. And there are always things that you stumble upon eq wise that are solutions you never tried before that stick.

Its a bloody nightmare.

[mikel]

[quote name='DangerDan' timestamp='1486726369' post='3234107']
Well, you don't, and can't. Unless you are going to step out into the crowd mid gig and then give your adjustments to the soundguy mid set, its really down to them as to how you will sound. It's their venue, they will know how it reacts to the sound we are trying to play out in it. They have to decide how to blend you with the rest of the band. What sounds good to you won't necessarily sound good FOH, when the place is full and the band are playing at volume.
[/quote]

I know all of that, but bassists spend lots of time and money to get just the sound they want. Just the right bass, strings, amp, cabs, speakers and pedals to produce there unique sound............and then leave what the audience hear up to the sound guy????? Why not save a fortune and buy a P Bass, a pre amp and in ears, cos thats what the FOH will make your top range kit sound like anyway?

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1486732320' post='3234181']


I know all of that, but bassists spend lots of time and money to get just the sound they want. Just the right bass, strings, amp, cabs, speakers and pedals to produce there unique sound............and then leave what the audience hear up to the sound guy????? Why not save a fortune and buy a P Bass, a pre amp and in ears, cos thats what the FOH will make your top range kit sound like anyway?
[/quote]

The thing is though and I know you are being sarcastic but sometimes that might actually sound better for the audience than the finely honed tone you've been trying to get just right.

[TimR]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1486732320' post='3234181']


I know all of that, but bassists spend lots of time and money to get just the sound they want. Just the right bass, strings, amp, cabs, speakers and pedals to produce there unique sound............and then leave what the audience hear up to the sound guy????? Why not save a fortune and buy a P Bass, a pre amp and in ears, cos thats what the FOH will make your top range kit sound like anyway?
[/quote]

Because you'd need that gear in the studio and don't want to have two setups for studio/live and you want to at least approximate the sound.

I think you do have a point though. Lots of people with completely unrealistic expectations from live sound.

[No lust in Jazz]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1486732320' post='3234181']
.....................bassists spend lots of time and money to get just the sound they want. Just the right bass, strings, amp, cabs, speakers and pedals to produce there unique sound......[/quote]

Unless you are a soloist, much of your sonic ideals will have to compete with, drums, guitars, keys and anything else that is in your band, I really want to be part of the [b]music[/b] that the band makes, rather than cut through it; on stage this starts with me hearing myself - the rest is down to the sound man who is mixing the [b]music[/b] - not just the bass.

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1486732320' post='3234181']
.....Why not save a fortune and buy a P Bass, a pre amp and in ears, cos thats what the FOH will make your top range kit sound like anyway?..[/quote]
Well a P Bass may not be for everyone, but its a good point.

[mikel]

[quote name='No lust in Jazz' timestamp='1486733690' post='3234201']
Unless you are a soloist, much of your sonic ideals will have to compete with, drums, guitars, keys and anything else that is in your band, I really want to be part of the [b]music[/b] that the band makes, rather than cut through it; on stage this starts with me hearing myself - the rest is down to the sound man who is mixing the [b]music[/b] - not just the bass.


Well a P Bass may not be for everyone, but its a good point.
[/quote]

Hey, I have no solo pretensions and I doubt many have but look on the gear threads of this forum and tell me people are not particular about there sound. I am and I am also not interested in recording so the dual rig thing is bogus.

Its the blend of instruments that make a sound and If we all used the same tone it would all pretty much sound the same. Sometimes its peoples differences that make it interesting. Everything from Glen Cornick, JJ Burnel to Chris Squire. Imagine if there sound guys had simply dialed there unique sounds out and made them generic bass tones live, cos it was easier.

The OP is all about "Improving live tone".

Edited February 10, 2017 by mikel

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1486736955' post='3234242']
Hey, I have no solo pretensions and I doubt many have but look on the gear threads of this forum and tell me people are not particular about there sound. I am and I am also not interested in recording so the dual rig thing is bogus.

Its the blend of instruments that make a sound and If we all used the same tone it would all pretty much sound the same. Sometimes its peoples differences that make it interesting. Everything from Glen Cornick, JJ Burnel to Chris Squire. Imagine if there sound guys had simply dialed there unique sounds out and made them generic bass tones live, cos it was easier.

The OP is all about "Improving live tone".
[/quote]problem is all those guys have their own sound engineers who know what they should sound like, the rest of us have to use an in house sound man who has no idea (and probably doesn't care) what we want to sound like

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1486733084' post='3234191']
The thing is though and I know you are being sarcastic but sometimes that might actually sound better for the audience than the finely honed tone you've been trying to get just right.
[/quote]

Depends of the case and soundman in question. For me the tone has to reach the amp just like it's suposed to sound to the audience, the amp is there to make it sound louder and EQ is used to correct the stage sound, doing this you're making sure the same tone is sent to the FOH mixer. If one relies on the amp's EQ to tailor the tone its perfectly fine, just take a post EQ DI out of the amp if the cab is flat/uncoloured or just mic the cab for FOH.

A good soundman is the one that doesn't EQ your bass to sound like A or B, the good soundman (and i've found quite a few of them) will only mess with EQ to get rid of resonances in the room and will respect your core tone. Of course this will happen if the bass player makes sure that he's sending his good tone to FOH. But there are also bad techs out there unfortunetly, in those cases just forget about FOH sound and enjoy playing the gig with your mates.

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1486737947' post='3234255']
problem is all those guys have their own sound engineers who know what they should sound like, the rest of us have to use an in house sound man who has no idea (and probably doesn't care) what we want to sound like
[/quote]

That's why a nice friendly talk to the guy before setting up (pref. over a beer offered to him) will go a long way in making him understand what you're looking for and having him trying to deliver what you asked. The vast majority of techs take as much pride in their work as we do so they'll want to do a good job. I don't think many will take offence if you explain how your band's suposed to sound, it will make their job easier and in a few cases they'll even thank you for it.

Though, if you find a tech that's not very friendly when you go to say hello to him just wish him a good day, offer him a beer if you feel like it, compliment him on his gear (even if it's behringer) and go away without talking about sound.

[radiophonic]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1486737947' post='3234255']
problem is all those guys have their own sound engineers who know what they should sound like, the rest of us have to use an in house sound man who has no idea (and probably doesn't care) what we want to sound like
[/quote]

All of those guys had 'that' sound from day1 and definitely didn't have their own sound guy. Most of the gigs Squire and Cornick played for at least their first couple of LPs probably wouldn't even have them through the desk half the time.

[chris_b]

I buy the best gear I can because I want a sound that is good, mine and consistent in every location. If the location changes that then it's what we have to endure and overcome.

If the room makes us sound crap then we'd better be playing some great songs with a fantastic groove which will create a great gig for the audience in spite of the problems.