Fret size and fingerboard radius for low action

[tedmanzie]

I was considering buying a Jazz neck for my Precision (Jap SQ Squire series), and I'd like it to have a low action for easy playability - high actions kill my left arm and fingers.

Radius:
I've got two basses (SQ & JV Squire) which I believe both have a vintage radius fingerboard (7.25"?) . On guitars, flatter fingerboards are known to help getting a low action, is it the same on basses? Guitars are a bit different as you have to accommodate string bending.

Frets:
One of my basses has vintage frets, the other a bit taller (6105?). I can't really notice the difference when playing bass tbh, although when on electric guitar I really don't like vintage frets. Do you think bigger frets on a bass help with playability/lower action?

Thoughts welcome, thanks

[Twincam]

Bigger or smaller frets don't affect action as you set the relief and string height via the top of the fret to bottom of string.

Yes flatter boards get a lower action in general but not always.

[Geek99]

Never had trouble getting low action on vintage radius personally

You just have to get the nut and the bridge right

Edited November 15, 2016 by Geek99

[bassjim]

Just IMO and IME.

Some basses with flat fingerboards you might like and some you might not. Same with radius necks. Lots of variables so its a bit try it before you buy it, or, buy it and either you will or wont like it.

My fav jazz has a slight radius but I prefer this to flat on THIS bass.

For low action:

( Get a guitar seterupperah/ tech that can if you don't have the knowledge or skills. Or this could be a good place to start sorting these things out by your self?)

A little cut at the nut can make quite a difference but untill you have the neck in your hands you wont know if it needs it.

String gauge: 45-105 I can get a lower than low action but more fret buzz especially up the dusty end. 40-100 I can go a bit higher. Because the gauge is not as hard on the fingers, and less effort strength wise, its easier to play and I get a better tone like this, and.... get rid of the fret buzz!
If you play a heavy gauge now, try this. The lower gauge sounds a bit twangy at first so you have to spend a week or two playing till you adjust to it. Yes there is going to be some tone difference but you might like it. Personally I like it. If you do not go back to 45-105/ heavier and accept the compromise of a few buzzy frets.

Flat vrs radius I think is a bit down to preference and a bit depending on the quality of the bass. I have right now at home a very nice expensive bass with a flat/er radius and I really don't like it. The next guy to play it might think its the best thing ever ever ever. The action on both my fav jazz and this one are more or less the same with the same gauge strings and low action.

[cameltoe]

I like a low action and I always prefer a 7.25" radius and vintage frets.

However, vintage frets can be quite tall unless they are well played in. Obviously the taller the fret the higher the string has to be from the fretboard.

Ask a decent luthier to take a bit off the top of the frets and set the nut height. With vintage frets it can help if they don't try and crown the frets to a point- just flatten the profile a bit and level them out.

You'll likely be able to get the strings a bit lower after that, with less relief too. With a decent fret job you can set the neck much straighter.

I've had it done on a couple basses including my Road Worn P, which can get a crazy-low action. Too low!

[bassjim]

[quote name='cameltoe' timestamp='1479227099' post='3174891']
I like a low action and I always prefer a 7.25" radius and vintage frets.

However, vintage frets can be quite tall unless they are well played in. Obviously the taller the fret the higher the string has to be from the fretboard.

Ask a decent luthier to take a bit off the top of the frets and set the nut height. With vintage frets it can help if they don't try and crown the frets to a point- just flatten the profile a bit and level them out.

You'll likely be able to get the strings a bit lower after that, with less relief too. With a decent fret job you can set the neck much straighter.

I've had it done on a couple basses including my Road Worn P, which can get a crazy-low action. Too low!
[/quote]
All of this!!

[Dood]

One of the reasons that Guitarists suggest that a flatter radius can give you a lower action is because the more rounded a fretboard is, the more likely that string bends will choke off. If I string bend a tone or more on my vintage bass, you can as good as say goodbye to the note. My 7 string, which I believe has a 20" radius, well you can bend all day without choking a bass string. For the vintage radius, one way to endeavour to get round that is to raise the action some more - thus, a flatter radius can be set up for a lower action if you are in to your Dave Gilmour m3rd bends!

[Misdee]

Fret size is something I too have been thinking about lately, essentially for the same reasons as the O.P.

My main bass is a USA Lakland PJ with a Jazz Bass neck and vintage frets. The bass plays with incredibly low action and very little relief in the neck. The problem is that the "feel" of playing this bass is very different from my Fenders with bigger size fret wire. It almost feels like a fretless in comparison. Even though the measured action on the Lakland is substantially lower than the Fenders, somehow it feels higher despite being effortless to play, if that makes sense!

Edited November 15, 2016 by Misdee

[mcnach]

unless you do a lot of string bending, fingerboard radius is of no consequence other than your personal preference regarding how they feel. You can get a low action in either, whatever the fretsize: it is down to the set up, having the frets correctly levelled, the nut and bridge set right, and the relief adjusted appropriately.

So, choose a bass that feels right to you. Then get it set up by someone who really knows what they're doing.

[dannybuoy]

A radius wouldn't affect the action if the nut was the same width as the bridge; but because the bridge is wider this does affect the geometry. Take it to extremes, imagine the string anchored at the middle of the nut and the far end of the bridge; up by the nut you could get the action just right, but down the dusty end the would be a bigger gap due to the angle of the string. So a flat board will allow for very slightly lower action.

[RhysP]

As others have said, some guitarists prefer flatter fingerboards because it stops string choke when bending, not because you can get the action lower on them.

[Grangur]

As others have said, radius will make no difference to action as the action on each string should be adjusted separately; adjusted for the right height from the top of the fret.

If you're getting strained hands and fingers, my guess is you're fretting the string down to the fingerboard all the time. Gary Willis has a good video on YouTube where he talks about the need to only use enough finger pressure to fret the string to change the note. I know GW is a fretless player BTW, but the situation is the same.

You could have the situation made easier by levelling the fret tops lower, but it would be better if you can work on adjusting your muscle-memory.

To work on the muscle memory, spend a few hours playing stuff really slowly with only using the minimum amount of pressure. Going slow allows the brain to learn the skill/technique faster.

[ambient]

The basses with the lowest actions that I've played, have generally had quite flat fretboards, and small frets.

[Twincam]

Radius does make a difference to the action but its by a tiny tiny amount though. A vintage radius of 7.25 is a different feel also to a flat board.
In general after a fret level, recrown and extensive multi stage polish a 7.25 radius board I can set up 2.4 - 1.9mm e-g in action at a relief of .007 - .015 in relief (personal relief preference is induvidual). And that would be absolutely no fret buzz even digging in.
Where in general any flatter boards I can get a better action sub 2.2mm - 1.5mm e-g. With a slightly flatter neck relief on average. Again that's a no fret buzz even digging in setup. Obviosly some like a bit of buzz if digging in so setups can get lower.

It seems to me from all the basses ive set up on average a flatter board allows anywhere from a 0.2 to 0.4mm improvement (lowering) in setup.
So not exactly much but some will notice that.

Also a 7.25 or even 9" radius might feel like its higher action when its not just because the tops of the e and g being lower than the a and d measured from the top. Not from the frets.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Twincam

[Grangur]

[quote name='Twincam' timestamp='1479297339' post='3175390']
Radius does make a difference to the action but its by a tiny tiny amount though. A vintage radius of 7.25 is a different feel also to a flat board.
In general after a fret level, recrown and extensive multi stage polish a 7.25 radius board I can set up 2.4 - 1.9mm e-g in action at a relief of .007 - .015 in relief (personal relief preference is induvidual). And that would be absolutely no fret buzz even digging in.
Where in general any flatter boards I can get a better action sub 2.2mm - 1.5mm e-g. With a slightly flatter neck relief on average. Again that's a no fret buzz even digging in setup. Obviosly some like a bit of buzz if digging in so setups can get lower.

It seems to me from all the basses ive set up on average a flatter board allows anywhere from a 0.2 to 0.4mm improvement (lowering) in setup.
So not exactly much but some will notice that.

Also a 7.25 or even 9" radius might feel like its higher action when its not just because the tops of the e and g being lower than the a and d measured from the top. Not from the frets.
[/quote]

But do you believe that amount of difference would result in the bass being significantly harder to play and result in muscle ache?

[mcnach]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1479298179' post='3175400']
But do you believe that amount of difference would result in the bass being significantly harder to play and result in muscle ache?
[/quote]

better to use a Plek...

[tedmanzie]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1479293872' post='3175353']
As others have said, radius will make no difference to action as the action on each string should be adjusted separately; adjusted for the right height from the top of the fret.

If you're getting strained hands and fingers, my guess is you're fretting the string down to the fingerboard all the time. Gary Willis has a good video on YouTube where he talks about the need to only use enough finger pressure to fret the string to change the note. I know GW is a fretless player BTW, but the situation is the same.

You could have the situation made easier by levelling the fret tops lower, but it would be better if you can work on adjusting your muscle-memory.

To work on the muscle memory, spend a few hours playing stuff really slowly with only using the minimum amount of pressure. Going slow allows the brain to learn the skill/technique faster.
[/quote]

Thanks for the tips. The thing is I have a very light fretting technique both on guitar and bass, but for whatever reason my left arm tendons started playing up about 20 years ago (too much acoustic guitar I think!) and I've found the only way to manage it is to keep string gauge / string construction / and action within certain limits + warming up and some stretches. TI Flats & DR Sunbeams (lite lite) with a low action are fine, anything above that, even LaBella low tensions, set it straight off again (which is annoying as I liked those...). If I play [i]any[/i] acoustic guitar for 10 mins I would have to take a week off...!

[RhysP]

[quote name='tedmanzie' timestamp='1479300668' post='3175420']
If I play [i]any[/i] acoustic guitar for 10 mins I would have to take a week off...!
[/quote]

You should try Newtone Heritage low tension acoustic strings, they're excellent.

[tedmanzie]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1479301542' post='3175425']
You should try Newtone Heritage low tension acoustic strings, they're excellent.
[/quote]

Not heard of them before , thanks for the tip

[ped]

Might be coincidence but the lowest action basses I've had (and I like my action loooooowwwww) have all had a zero fret.

[acidbass]

I prefer smaller vintage frets actually, after having played the Squier Classic Vibe series extensively. Fretting a note (seems) to require less effort. Obviously there is less wear and tear in a smaller fret, so if I were getting a neck made, I would specify stainless steel frets.

[RhysP]

[quote name='tedmanzie' timestamp='1479301755' post='3175430']
Not heard of them before , thanks for the tip
[/quote]

I have hypermobile joints which make holding strings down very difficult as I can't put much pressure on the fingers without the joints just bending all over the place. I've found the Newtone Heritage low tension strings have made playing acoustic guitar much easier for me.

[Twincam]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1479298179' post='3175400']


But do you believe that amount of difference would result in the bass being significantly harder to play and result in muscle ache?
[/quote]

Depends on the player.
I myself have a heavy hand but at the same time I'm incredible sensitive to setup. My fretting hand really aches and fatigues fast if a bass is not setup to my liking and even a tiny change in action for some songs or passages could be the difference between fatigue or not. Oddly string choice effects it less lighter gauge easier to press down but heavy gauge I can lower the action more without fret buzz so it equals out.
And I genuinely can feel tiny differences not quite on the 0.1mm scale but I guess some might. After all 0.1mm can be the difference of fret buzz or not also.

However for the op I do feel flat 10" and above boards are that slight bit easier to play and you can get that tiny bit of a better setup. Also finding strings that feel right.
I guess its an accumlative effect of feeling comfortable.

Some players have the extra ability too play anything and any setup. I envy them but I still believe in optimising these tiny differences for everyone. Even if they don't feel it lol.

[Twincam]

Sometimes taller frets with a very very fine very pointed crown can make fretting easier. The contact point is much better with the string and requires just that little bit less pressure to fret.
You can get just a hint of the same benefits a scalloped board gives too with a tall fret.
The downside is the frets need attention often to keep them crowned like that, then they quickly need fully replacing unless using stainless frets.

[tedmanzie]

[quote name='Twincam' timestamp='1479297339' post='3175390']
Radius does make a difference to the action but its by a tiny tiny amount though. A vintage radius of 7.25 is a different feel also to a flat board.
In general after a fret level, recrown and extensive multi stage polish a 7.25 radius board I can set up 2.4 - 1.9mm e-g in action at a relief of .007 - .015 in relief (personal relief preference is induvidual). And that would be absolutely no fret buzz even digging in.
Where in general any flatter boards I can get a better action sub 2.2mm - 1.5mm e-g. With a slightly flatter neck relief on average. Again that's a no fret buzz even digging in setup. Obviosly some like a bit of buzz if digging in so setups can get lower.

It seems to me from all the basses ive set up on average a flatter board allows anywhere from a 0.2 to 0.4mm improvement (lowering) in setup.
So not exactly much but some will notice that.

Also a 7.25 or even 9" radius might feel like its higher action when its not just because the tops of the e and g being lower than the a and d measured from the top. Not from the frets.
[/quote]

Where do you measure action from? 12th fret to bottom of string?
I've currently got 1.9mm on the E and 1.5mm on the G at the 12th fret, very tiny bit of relief in the neck.
I could get it a touch lower with heavier gauge like you say but the extra tension doesn't work for my left hand.