Ive gone off Fender.

[bubinga5]

[quote name='Subbeh' timestamp='1421189498' post='2658366']
Sorry, reread my post and I really didn't mean to be quite so much of a dick/twat/knob (delete as applicable)

Apologies :-*>
[/quote] Ditto. Absolutely no problem buddy.

[lojo]

Ive got a picture of myself, i'm playing a Fender with a music stand in use. Should I hand myself in , or wait till they come?

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1421254842' post='2659025']
Ive got a picture of myself, i'm playing a Fender with a music stand in use. Should I hand myself in , or wait till they come?
[/quote]

Oh they already know

[stingrayPete1977]

2 hour practice with my Fender last night, lovely

[Woodinblack]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1421154395' post='2657698']
The most commonly cited problem with Fenders - that of quality control - results from the scale of their operation and the sheer quantity of basses they churn out. [/quote]

that makes no sense. The more you make the more uniform they should be. They produce a fraction of the number of normal consumer items, all of which would be expected to have much higher quality control and be more consistent.

[bubinga5]

[quote name='Woodinblack' timestamp='1421260293' post='2659121']
that makes no sense. The more you make the more uniform they should be. They produce a fraction of the number of normal consumer items, all of which would be expected to have much higher quality control and be more consistent.
[/quote] to be honest, and with respect this makes no sense to me. the more you make of something the more detail and quality gets lost. making an instrument 1000000 times, is bound to have consequences on quality with a huge manufacturing process like Fender has.. can they keep a track of every machine, jig, employee that is making there instruments.? Martin Peterson of Sei on the other hand, has total control over what he makes. just an extreme example.

[Woodinblack]

Nothing to do with the detail, all down to consistency. Maybe you would make a sh*t guitar, but you would make every guitar as sh*t as each other, it would become a commodity item.

[Chiliwailer]

[quote name='bubinga5' timestamp='1421261044' post='2659133']
Martin Peterson of Sei on the other hand, has total control over what he makes. just an extreme example.
[/quote]

+1

What I love best about my Lull is that Mike Lull made it himself, no other luthiers were involved so he assured the quality right through to the end result. It has his name on it, only himself to blame if it's sh*te, not a paid employee who does the same bit day in day out. No offence meant, to the employee or Fender, that's just how it is.

Mike Lull is in his early 60's now, when he retires that's it. I like the old school in that and must resist the forces of GAS requesting that I special order an ash body maple neck P4 in trans black, lol!

[bubinga5]

[quote name='Woodinblack' timestamp='1421261371' post='2659139']
Nothing to do with the detail, all down to consistency. Maybe you would make a sh*t guitar, but you would make every guitar as sh*t as each other, it would become a commodity item.
[/quote]sure but consistency doesn't always mean quality. that was Skol303's point

[stingrayPete1977]

0.1 percent of 10000 instruments is 10
0.1 percent of 1000 instruments is 1

If a shop had 1 brand X bass and 10 Fenders you could be unlucky enough for all 11 basses to be rubbish

[bubinga5]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1421261663' post='2659147']
0.1 percent of 10000 instruments is 10
0.1 percent of 1000 instruments is 1

If a shop had 1 brand X bass and 10 Fenders you could be unlucky enough for all 11 basses to be rubbish
[/quote] I'm really not clever enough to work out what you just posted then Pete..

[Skol303]

[quote name='Woodinblack' timestamp='1421260293' post='2659121']
that makes no sense. The more you make the more uniform they should be. They produce a fraction of the number of normal consumer items, all of which would be expected to have much higher quality control and be more consistent.
[/quote]

I'd like to think that! But there are plenty of examples from other consumer products that suggest otherwise.

Here's one from the world of car manufacture, where stuff is generally made to precise specifications by robots...

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/apr/09/toyota-recalls-over-6m-cars-worldwide

It only takes one 'bug' in the system for problems to become amplified in mass production runs.

The % of products with errors might be no different to that of a smaller manufacturer, but the quantity will be greater because of the greater number of items being produced.

We notice this in the products we source at work. Smaller manufacturers tend to produce less faulty stuff by volume in comparison to larger firms - partly due to percentages, but also I think because it's easier to apply quality control if you're making less 'stuff'.

But it also tends to mean you have smaller profit margins and need to charge more

But whatever. The P-bass I own is a beauty, so I have no complaints about Fender.

[UglyDog]

[quote name='Chiliwailer' timestamp='1421261496' post='2659142']
Mike Lull is in his early 60's now, when he retires that's it. I like the old school in that and must resist the forces of GAS requesting that I special order an ash body maple neck P4 in trans black, [b]lol[/b]!
[/quote]
Surely that should be 'lul'..?

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='bubinga5' timestamp='1421262138' post='2659159']
I'm really not clever enough to work out what you just posted then Pete..
[/quote]

Well I confused myself to be honest! I think the jist of my brain wave was that if two manufacturers had the exact same rate of flawed items for every thousand items made the bigger volume producer will produce more flawed items that then get flagged up by the internet massive.

[merello]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1421144417' post='2657506']
I like oysters but some people prefer snails.
[/quote]
Tony or Larry?

[bubinga5]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1421265842' post='2659214']
I'd like to think that! But there are plenty of examples from other consumer products that suggest otherwise.

Here's one from the world of car manufacture, where stuff is generally made to precise specifications by robots...

[url="http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/apr/09/toyota-recalls-over-6m-cars-worldwide"]http://www.theguardi...-cars-worldwide[/url]

It only takes one 'bug' in the system for problems to become amplified in mass production runs.

The % of products with errors might be no different to that of a smaller manufacturer, but the quantity will be greater because of the greater number of items being produced.

We notice this in the products we source at work. Smaller manufacturers tend to produce less faulty stuff by volume in comparison to larger firms - partly due to percentages, but also I think because it's easier to apply quality control if you're making less 'stuff'.

But it also tends to mean you have smaller profit margins and need to charge more

But whatever. The P-bass I own is a beauty, so I have no complaints about Fender.
[/quote]you explained it better than i did.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='merello' timestamp='1421266391' post='2659225']
Tony or Larry?
[/quote]
... just when it looked as though no one knew what I was talking about ...

http://youtu.be/NJ0VSmkebwk

[icastle]

An ex BT colleague of mine told me about an early shipment of transmitters they'd ordered from a factory in Japan.
The contract was for 2000 transmitters and no more than 3% of them should be failures.

Delivery day arrived, and as it was an extremely expensive order, two Japanese engineers had flown over to ensure everything went smoothly.

The BT engineers unloaded the packing crates throughout the day and eventually got to a cardboard box sat on it's own in the far corner of the depot.

When the Japanese engineers were asked about the box they replied "we put the 3% failures you requested in a separate box".

Not only were those radios faulty, but all the others worked continuously for over 15 years before technology moved on and they were decommissioned.

That's Quality Control.

[bass_japan_direct]

I agree with you, Fender's build quality is inconsistent and their priority appears to be profit not quality. I had only a couple of US fenders in my time, but i sold them on as other Jazz basses by other makers / brands were actually better.

I'm based in Tokyo Japan presently, and I am lucky to work with some of Japan's finest builders, including, on occasion Fujigen, the current builder or Fender Japan.
Now, here's my point, 10 or 11 years ago Fender Japan's were quite a bit better than they are now....this is not Fujigen's doing as the builders, but is rumored to be
Fender's decision [size=4]to cut costs and sell to a market that will just "lap it up" so to speak. [/size]
Specifically, the bodies are now mostly three piece not two like they used to be, the hardware is mid range Gotoh not high end like they were up to 2004. The necks do not hold out well probably due to not curing / seasoning for long enough (again a time and cost cutting exercise). Case in point; A student of mine has an MM signature made in late 2004 by Fender Japan. The neck is unstable, it loses tuning, it doesn't set up nicely and the grains look awful on the three piece body. It cost him around $1500.

Here's what i heard happened, and if this is indeed true this illustrates Fender's priorities, at least for the Japanese market.
In the late 90's Atelier Z were approached to make MM's, as were Bacchus (Deviser), and Fujigen too, all of which made excellent handmade prototypes.....but Fujigen won the bid because of higher, cheaper output capabilities due to use of NC Routers, but post 2004 their production quality went right down. [size=4]Seriously, the matching of grains is appalling in some cases and I rarely find an MIJ fender that plays nicely or sets up well unless it is of older stock.[/size]

In fact Fujigen's own brand of Jazz bass such as the FGN Neo-classic is way better than post 2004 MIJ Fenders and runs similar prices (i would thoroughly recommend them), but it doesn't have a fender headstock or logo so it doesn't sell as widely... It clearly is a case of lower budget and higher quantity equals lower quality but more profit for the brand.
It seems this sadly may be the company culture now. So much for the legacy eh [size=4] [/size]

[Telebass]

It's always down to the bottom line.
Even Leo did no different, but as he had control (more accurately, Forest White had control), things were a bit more consistent.

[ubit]

It's kind of the same argument I posted a while back about Spectors Euro. I could not see how the American NS could be so much better that it cost two or three grand more. The Euro is pretty much perfect, but there's a snobbish market that demands things to be made in America. I have two American Fenders and am delighted with them, however, I also have a Japanese Fender, which is just as good. At the end of the day, it's all down to your pick ups and strings, innit?

I do confess to having severe GAS for one of those Teddy Lee basses. Anyone got any info on how much?

[stingrayPete1977]

There is going to be a squier version of the Teddy Lee with cool kung fu graphics, Teddy worked with the design team personally to create a fitting tribute to his brother.

[Conan]

[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1421308732' post='2659550']I do confess to having severe GAS for one of those Teddy Lee basses. Anyone got any info on how much?
[/quote]

I could bearly afford one... They will tend to Polarice opinion.

[ubit]

Reminds me of the time I seen Roddy Holder walking down our street

[stingrayPete1977]

A drunken friend was out at a country pub near me a few years ago, Roy Wood was in there (He lives near here) my mate spent the night telling HIM he was Ronnie Wood! Still to this day him and his wife that he was withat the time fall out about it as he says it was Ronnie Wood that he was calling Roy Wood all night, I trust his sober wife and Roy Wood lives a few miles away from the pub in question!