Why do we bother??!

[icastle]

[quote name='paul_5' timestamp='1416180676' post='2607777']
I spokes to the landlord about the possibility of my band playing and he said "I've always paid £150 to bands, and I always will. It's not negotiable".
[/quote]

Is he as amenable to the idea of selling his beer at 1985 prices as well..?

[Guest FretNoMore]

As long as bands keep playing for peanuts or for free I don't see why this would change. It's the same in my other hobby, photography, lots of guys with excellent equipment working for free just because it's fun.

Edited November 16, 2014 by FretNoMore

[flyfisher]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1416174950' post='2607701']
Good point, however I still don't understand how your taking advantage of the venue if your contributing to the sale of alcohol. The owner goes home with a pocket full of cash and you go home with a pocket full of love. Hmmmm ? maybe it is a win for you.
[/quote]

I'd say it's a win-win situation, but it's more like bartering. Everyone gets what they want from the deal; the bar owner gets more sales, the band get to play live to an audience, the audience get to hear a live band. Everyone is happy - if they were not, then they wouldn't bother would they? No one is forced to play/sell beer/go to the pub.

[heminder]

If you're a good band and will deliver the goods for the pub, you really ought to increase your prices. The pub benefits greatly from having live music, so you should be compensated accordingly. They'll [i]always[/i] argue that they're short on their budget, but they're clearly not if they're actively seeking bands to play at their place. Their management, whether good or bad, will already have factored into their business plan what it costs to hire a professional band. Music performance is skilled labour. £150 is nothing, unless the members are hobbyists.

[ironside1966]

Let me play the devil's advocate, did the venue make any extra money when you take into consideration the cost of the band, extra staff if need, extra energy, plus the wholesale cost of the beverages.

[Les]

[quote name='ironside1966' timestamp='1416189649' post='2607822']
Let me play the devil's advocate, did the venue make any extra money when you take into consideration the cost of the band, extra staff if need, extra energy, plus the wholesale cost of the beverages.
[/quote]

Not sure that's pertinent. This is not a sale or return situation. Though fees are lower these days than we were all used to we are still operating in a commercial environment, and as someome pointed out, maybe the band should have confirmed he fee at the time of rebooking, but to be honest a RE-booking im my opinion is on the same terms as the original unless one party pipes up at the time.

I'm on the same circuit as Damon, this has never happened to us and the gig is way out of order.

[Damonjames]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1416174358' post='2607689']


I appreciate some people might want to but they don't HAVE to! I take your point - my musical hobby costs me money, I get that, but so do my other hobbies but no one subsidises them, so what makes music so different? I played a 50 minute mixed set of covers and originals today to about 60/70 people, together with 3 other bands. Admission was free, the bands were not paid, everyone had fun, it was 4 miles from home. That'll do me for this month. I'm happy.

Edit: I was standing exactly where I saw Norman Watt-Roy play a blinder of a gig with the Blockheads two days ago. I'm guessing he got paid, but then he is a bit better than me . . .
[/quote]

Ok, so if I was in this situation, I'd be less miffed. The fact is Saturday night was one if three gigs this month, and it was a 100 mile round trip. I have to carry three basses due to is being a tribute act and having a set with about a million different tunings in it as we normally play for 2 ish hours plus encore.
I'll say it again, there is no third party profiting from your other hobbies! If there were 60/70 punters there, I'd fancy the publican has had a good night, and probably isn't in danger if going out of business.
The whole pubs closing thing is an argument I itself! Most if the pubs that are closing are the ones that have not changed what they offer. There is also an over supply of pubs in this country, times have changed. I'd say the vast majority of people now drive to work, and also a high chance of being in a relationship with a partner who also works full time. So stopping off for a couple of pints on the way home from work isn't really an option now. The pubs that have adapted and offer a decent music venue, or sports bar, or god forbid, family restaraunt with a soft play attached are in no danger of closing, I can assure you.
The ones who haven't changed a thing since thatcher was in power are te ones struggling to keep the doors open.
I guess I am "moaning" as you so abruptly put it, is that we had edible some gigs under £200 to get a foot in to a venue, and we have been offered more for the subsequent gigs (so I know we are a good enough band!), to play for less smarts a little. Yes I know it's our fault, we should have double checked the fee and there is no excuse, but had they offered that we probably wouldn't have taken the gig

[deepbass5]

Just wondered about door men, yep those big guys in black. Do they stand in the rain all night for free because they enjoy knocking people about . I expect they get paid for providing that service. If they didn't provide door men the council may not renew their drink licence. I don't see why you should put up with this if it is your primary source for musical outlet. I play in a big band for nothing in fact i pay £30/month towards hall fees and MD. I treat this as part of my ongoing musical education. We get petrol money for gigs and I get £50 if i provide the PA. but when asked to play pubs my 4 piece function band quotes our normal fee, and hey, we haven't had to do one yet, but we are supporting you guys by trying to raise the fees and upholding the value of live music.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Damonjames' timestamp='1416171628' post='2607638']
I should state that I have no problem playing for free, my band has done several charit gigs, and will no doubt do more for worthy causes.
But as far as in concerned 50-100£ more out of the till for the pub won't break the bank, but it makes a if difference to the takings of the band. It also then puts some responsibility on the venue to promote the event to ensure a good turnout.
We promote the hell out if out gigs via Facebook with a 7 day countdown with a new photo for a previous gigs to try and get as many punters in as possible. But we have done a coupe of door price gigs and come away with less than we got last night!
[/quote]

If a pub can only afford to pay £100 or £150 then they aren't doing things right and that would be a pub to avoid as those figures give you
a. no money, and b, no audience. I'd have more sympathy if that was a bottom line figure with a bonus on top when you do well, but it takes a
good relationship to do that deal.
There are many pubs that just aren't suitable for music anyway... they are either too small or the LL is trying everything he can to get money
in but they can't expect us to believe they are so stupid they don't know the value of things. They know the value of the price of a barrel, for sure,
so they will also know the value of something that sells them 200 pints.
You could always try and do the economics backwards and see how many people are in the bar... ( it is a numbers game, which why small pubs and beer sales don't work ) and work out how well their music nights go.
If you have 50 in a bar for 2 hrs, how many pints do they sell..ballpark..??

But............ by the same token bands have to look at themselves, if you draw 10 people, then you aren't worth anything either, in this game.

[JTUK]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1416172793' post='2607656']
Again, it's a matter of perspective. You won't play without being paid (fair enough) so will have a tendency to see people playing for free being taken advantage of by the pubs and bars where they play. However, because I play for enjoyment, I need somewhere to gig . . . so perhaps I'm the one taking advantage of a venue that will let me play there?

In the UK, the pub business is dying on its feet (not because of music) and pubs are closing down at an alarming rate. If I'm happy to play for free and can tempt a few people into a local pub to listen to some live music instead of sitting at home drinking their supermarket beer while watching TV and the pub makes a bit more money as a result and can therefore remain in business, then I suggest that could be a win, win, win situation - I get to indulge my hobby, people get to hear live music in a social setting and the pub gets to stay in business. The alternative is that the pub goes bust and everyone loses.

Of course, this doesn't apply to all pubs or to all bands, so happily there is room for all. But what's interesting about these regular discussions is that it's the bands trying to get paid that are the ones always moaning. The bands playing for the pure love of the music and the performance seem to be pretty chilled. So how are the 'pro' bands going to persuade the hobby bands to change their ways and take on all the apparent angst and aggravation of gigging for money? I don't think they can because they are inhabiting different worlds - not better or worse, just different.
[/quote]

I have always believed that relaxing the laws of music license was not going to do the musicians any good at all.
It allowed too many pubs to put on music as a punt or afterthought and devalued the whole thing..IMO.
It also allows too many bands out to compete. Sometimes in my town, there are 8-9 gigs on a saturday night so you can't tell me that
pubs don't know the value to them... I wont play a lot of those places ...as I like to stay with my original venue picks and be fair to them
and I think 2 gigs per town is enough, and also, those other pubs will cherry pick the nights so they are ad-hoc gigs, IMO.
The other thing is that supermarket beer prices are kiiling the pub trade ...so I would price out drinking cheap at home.

[chris_b]

We've just been dropped by a gig. We drive between 30 and 50 miles and play 3 times a year, and no we don't bring a load of mates. The owner likes us would like us to play but says he needs to book local bands as they bring in the punters.

I would argue that there aren't 20 quality local bands so he should be filling his pub with locals on a live music night anyway. We always get the punters singing and dancing but he doesn't get enough through the door. It's true we don't get them flooding in, but whose fault is that? He's been open and above board with us but he's no promoter and relies on word of mouth to get people in. How can we sort his gig out when we don't play within 20 miles of him and are only there 3 times a year?

I know nothing about running a pub and he knows nothing about live music. The kids go to the disco bar over the road and the oldies stay at home with their cheap beer. He spends £40,000 a year on bands and has just spent a lot on refurbing the inside and outside. It seems to me the economics of running a pub are broken and as too much live music (especially cover bands) is tied to pubs we are going down with the ship.

Edited November 17, 2014 by chris_b

[JTUK]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1416174358' post='2607689']
I appreciate some people might want to but they don't HAVE to! I take your point - my musical hobby costs me money, I get that, but so do my other hobbies but no one subsidises them, so what makes music so different? I played a 50 minute mixed set of covers and originals today to about 60/70 people, together with 3 other bands. Admission was free, the bands were not paid, everyone had fun, it was 4 miles from home. That'll do me for this month. I'm happy.

Edit: [b]I was standing exactly where I saw Norman Watt-Roy play a blinder of a gig with the Blockheads two days ago. I'm guessing he got paid, but then he is a bit better than me .[/b] . .
[/quote]

hmmm sounds like an acceptance of the concept to me..

Also............ anyone tried to buy a concert ticket of late..?? it seems that people will pay £20 for relatively unknowns ( in a wider sense ) for a night out.
Tribute bands are charging £40... so a decent local band stands a chance at £10 a ticket IF you have a show that you don't give away for free ( £300 ) down the local too often.
I put on special events for a pub type set...but geared towards a festival and we charge 3 times a pub rate. For that money I can put the players on for £100 plus a man and get in 7 or so people.. These can be amongst the best gigs of the year.

[Weststarx]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1416140776' post='2607230']
Some folks will climb to the peak of a mountain or tall hill and jump off with a hang glider. It costs them fuel and gear do do that. How much are they paid..? They're not, it's their hobby. Some will go scuba diving, with bottles to lug and wet-suits to pack away. How much do they earn for such a week-end..? Nothing, it's what they do for fun.
[/quote]

This is it for me,

I go paintballing once a month with all my own kit etc and travel for a hour and half to go the the paintball field I most enjoy. The day usually costs me around £100+ in total but its totally worth the rush and enjoyment I get from it.

Its the same with the band, I get the rush and enjoyment and also get paid a little bit for it so I find that absolutely amazing no matter how small the fee. I'd be more than happy to go and do it for free [i](tries to dodge all the cabages and tomatoes thrown at me).[/i]

We play pubs playing other peoples songs, I dont expect to be paid anything amazing...

[leschirons]

[quote name='Damonjames' timestamp='1416213610' post='2607878']
Yes I know it's our fault, we should have double checked the fee and there is no excuse, but had they offered that we probably wouldn't have taken the gig
[/quote]

It seems that this is the answer then. Ask how much it is before saying yes. Then, by your own admission, you would not have taken the gig.

No offence, but it seems the pubs come in for some real stick here. They are running a business and have no obligation to adhere to how we think they "should" be running their business. If Jim Beam say to the landlord that they will supply them at an 80% discount to get some exposure in the region, they'd be mad not to accept the deal. We wouldn't expect them to say no as it's not fair on Jack Daniels.

Some pubs pay well, others not, so, just avoid the ones that don't pay well. If you still find that you want to accept lesser paid gigs as you're all bored at home on a Friday night, then it turns out that you do actually play for fun.

[brensabre79]

I think people who are in a 5 piece band who go out for £150 get every penny they deserve personally.

I'm in a 5-piece covers band, we do what we do, we don't strip down for a cheaper gig either. We don't play for less than £300 ever - including the 'shop window' pub gigs we do from time to time - most of the time it's £100+ per man.

The amount of places we've had phone up and baulk at our fee because they can get a band to come 35 miles, with PA and lights and play 'til midnight for £150 has pushed us to work hard at being a better band. The places that accept our fee invariably ask us back, because we offer value for money.

[JTUK]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1416217244' post='2607910'] We've just been dropped by a gig. We drive between 30 and 50 miles and play 3 times a year, and no we don't bring a load of mates. The owner likes us would like us to play but says he needs to book local bands as they bring in the punters. I would argue that there aren't 20 quality local bands so he should be filling his pub with locals on a live music night anyway.
............................
[/quote]

Yes... it is an intense subject and the dynamics are quite interesting to me.
I don't get why some bands are popular but I can't do anything about it anyway...

Quality bands is a subjective thing so not sure how tradeable that in itself is worth.
IF we thought, for example, we were twice as good as band X, the market wouldn't pay us twice as much
so we stick to the pubs that pay upwards of £200. We accept that one band might do £1000 or business a night
and another only £300...and the band can't think that is the only bill to settle that night so of course, a good business
plan would be to pay bands per average nightly takings. I can totally understand why a LL might do that, but by the same token
they have to understand we don't work for £xxx. You have to walk away if you can't make the deal.

I think a lot of pub work is just too dodgy myself as you end up playing all sorts of dives. Two rules for us...is it a pub that you can take your g/f to..
and by that same token would your friends go there...? The idea is of course, to grow your appeal but throwing too much mud at the wall can be soul-destroying.
At the end of the day... people want a great time and will pay for that and these things are self perpetuating....IMO.

The best draws around here are ska bands and I think they can get close to £400 in the right pub...but the turnout has to be almost a certainly for the LL...so
the bands have probably worked up to that. Next, vintage disco's do well... After that, you are looking at the top bands and by 'top' they either have
a quality others don't have, or they play exactly the right material with the right 'vibe'
Sometimes, bands that have a verybig social circle do well...but come unstuck when they play out of town..
So..it takes all sorts of sorts... but it also takes time and effort on everyones part.
If pubs were the only thing we did...I guess we would play them more and then I might be a lot more gloomy about them than I am...but
I would say the scene is good around here.
Money HAS stood still though. £300 is considered a good rate for 2x45 but more bands are getting it. Also, £250 seems to be the bottom line of
most bands that are percieved as 'good'. .

[Guest FretNoMore]

I know this rather crappy band that consists of work mates, they have no problem booking a gig because they have this huge entourage of people from their office that treats this as their night out with the work mates. They bassically take over the whole bar and can garantee a crowd, and of course the bar owner is very happy to oblige.

Not a gig I would want to play over and over, but whatever floats your boat, I guess. There often is a requirement from the bar for the band to bring in people, though this is not what we do, we can't rustle up a crowd on demand.

[JTUK]

Bands round here that don't add to the numbers aren't going to get called back on any sort of terms.
The blues bands often have a stellar gtr but after 20 mins they have said everything they are going to say.moslty.
They will work cheap..but tbh..the gig IS cheap...they rock up with minimum of gear and no lights and 12 bar all night.
Not saying this never never works but it is kind of dumbing down others efforts...but then the gtr in this 3 piece probably
pays himself more...so for £180..he does ok..??

But the simple fact is..IMO... no matter how good you think you are and what you think you are worth, your worth is 'determined'
by how well the pub does. You can be pretty awful and the bar does £3k... so the LL knows that is either a freak event
or it is unexplainable, ...it doesn't matter... he is going to want to pull that off again. You WILL be rebooked unless you really really
screw it up. And by the same token you can be a great band but no one is interested and it doesn't matter to the LL that you have mortgages
and the sax players has a stellar musical CV and the rest aren't at all shoddy, he is looking at his bar takings. They will determine what YOU are worth
to them. Hopefully, the difference in your valuation and his wont be too far apart.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1416217326' post='2607912']


hmmm sounds like an acceptance of the concept to me..

Also............ anyone tried to buy a concert ticket of late..?? it seems that people will pay £20 for relatively unknowns ( in a wider sense ) for a night out.
Tribute bands are charging £40... so a decent local band stands a chance at £10 a ticket IF you have a show that you don't give away for free ( £300 ) down the local too often.
I put on special events for a pub type set...but geared towards a festival and we charge 3 times a pub rate. For that money I can put the players on for £100 plus a man and get in 7 or so people.. These can be amongst the best gigs of the year.
[/quote]

What concept? The idea of getting paid for playing? Of course I have no problem with that concept, but frankly I ( and the rest of the band) can't be arsed with all the aggravation of the commercial side of things. We just want to play live music. We don't want to negotiate hiring a venue, hire a sound guy, sort out some lighting, pay for advertising to publicise the gig, do all that social media stuff, pester all our friends and family to come along, travel all over the country . . . . that all sounds like hard work to me - in which case I'd definitely want to be paid

I'm in this music game for my own pleasure. I'm not trying to earn a living or forge a career. I enjoy playing with others rather than alone at home, we write our own songs and enjoy gigging mixed original/cover sets, which we do about once a month on average. When somewhere like the Hertford Corn Exchange offers a free opportunity to play a decent local venue with PA, engineer and lighting all supplied, then why not?

I'm not advocating that all bands should be like us, far from it, just trying to point out that there are all sort of motivations for playing live music and not all of them involve money.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Damonjames' timestamp='1416213610' post='2607878']
I guess I am "moaning" as you so abruptly put it, is that we had edible some gigs under £200 to get a foot in to a venue, and we have been offered more for the subsequent gigs (so I know we are a good enough band!), to play for less smarts a little. Yes I know it's our fault, we should have double checked the fee and there is no excuse, but had they offered that we probably wouldn't have taken the gig
[/quote]

I didn't mean "moaning" in a critical sense, more as an observation of some bands being dissatisfied with their situation. It sounds like your band is specifically aiming to make some money from gigging (and fair enough) and have been upset that you can't always make as much as you'd like. It seems to be a common complaint of bands that expect to be paid to play, and I can understand why because it DOES cost money to so this stuff - but, as pointed out elsewhere here, all hobbies cost money and many of them are more expensive than gigging!

So I guess it all comes down to motivation and if the motivation is to make money then it's a tough business to crack.

[spacey]

Every play for free band I have seen always look and sound like something the council made up.
No dis-respect but they are far more likely to empty the pub than fill it.
I would liken them to having your local punters decorate the pub with left over paint.
Quite sure they would have a great time, but at the same time you will get exactly what you pay for.
Someone indulging their hobby.
Good bands, get paid good money for a very good reason.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1416225361' post='2608010']...
I'm not advocating that all bands should be like us, far from it, just trying to point out that there are all sort of motivations for playing live music and not all of them involve money.
[/quote]

We've been here before; doubtless we'll be back. It would appear that there is a concept which some fail to grasp or accept, in that not all 'value' or 'worth' is expressed in financial terms. The 'worth' of a band is not exclusively its 'price', or what anyone is prepared to pay, in notes. To suggest that those who do not charge are, [i]per se[/i], 'worthless' is false, just as those that do charge are not necessarily 'worth' the price. The value of anyone's playing is not the price he/she is able to command, alone. As long as this notion of having to reduce all into cash terms, the misunderstanding will continue. Oh well...
I still get this strange perception of jealousy, too, whenever I read of those who demand retribution because others are getting it. Do what they are doing, if you want to be paid for it. Become a 'bouncer', or a barman, if you want money for going to a gig. Is it the 'fairness' of it all that hurts..? If one is forever looking over one's shoulder to see how others are doing, before deciding one's own strategy, it's a recipe for a cricked neck, I'd say.
I've said it before, so no surprise; yes, I used to play professionally. Now I play for my, and others, pleasure. End of. If there's someone selling beer, or getting paid for doing the PA or lights, bully for them; I lead my life, not theirs. I choose to play for free. Am I good..? You'll never know, unless you come and see us play. Could we charge for our shows..? Possibly, but we don't want to. You do as you wish, of course, but so do we. [size=4] [/size]

[TimR]

Regards hobbies.

Listening to music, going to gigs or playing music at home is a hobby. Like fishing, you are doing it for your sole enjoyment.

The guy in the bait shop is also a hobby fisherman but as soon as he starts providing a service for the other fishermen he starts to charge.

If people want to listen to your band then you're providing a service. If you don't provide a good service (even if it's free) they won't listen. If they don't come and see you then the pub looses out.

I don't think the 'I enjoy it so why should I be paid?' theory works. I enjoy my day job, maybe I should just do that for free too?

.

Edited November 17, 2014 by TimR

[Marc S]

[quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1416132979' post='2607095']
Depends what you do it for! Love or money!
[/quote]

Indeed.
I do it because I love playing
Yes, there will be bad gigs, yes there will be gigs that don't pay well

But if you count those as free rehearsals, and help towards getting better and tighter
You can charge more in future...

I know how you feel
A lot seems to also depend on the area you're playing in..
Pubs are having a tough time too

I'm sure you'll feel better soon enough
As others have said, if you can make some complete strangers happy,
and get a real positive vibe from playing, it's a dose of medicine

Playing bass in a band is my hobby
... and long may it remain so

[JTUK]

I have to say that I am very sceptical about free bands being any good.
I can get my head around the odd gig and being worthwhile to do for free
but the carrot needs to be pretty appealing.. I guess this is relative ..?

No one round here any good plays for free. The bills of 'charity 'beer festivals here
are full of bands willing to do it, but none of them are amongst the better bands, 9/10, IMO.

I can only state what the scene is like here and I haven't seen some of your bands, but
most bands know their worth here and charge accordingly.
Altho, I also know one or two bands will do anything to play the headline slot of a prestigous gig
and to do that, they do it for free. That is fine, there is more budget elsewhere.