Motown on TV tonight.

[Skol303]

[quote name='JazzBassfreak' timestamp='1404683122' post='2494756']From all I've listened to, it's better than the rubbish that's coming out these days.[/quote]

It's all a matter of personal taste, innit.

I happen to love Motown... or Nothern Soul, which is the name I know it by. Catchy, dancefloor-friendly songs and some fantastic basslines. What's not to like? My father in law has a huge collection of original Northern Soul on vinyl, which is always a lot of fun to rifle through.

I'm sure much of it is indeed "[i]better than the rubbish that's coming out these days"[/i]. But by contrast, that doesn't necessarily make it better than the [i]good[/i] music that's coming out these days.

That's the beauty of music... it's always evolving, there's always good and bad, and each generation will always swear that[i] 'their' [/i]music is better than that of the generations before and after them. And so it will always be

Edited July 7, 2014 by Skol303

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1404736726' post='2495176']
....and each generation will always swear that[i] 'their' [/i]music is better than that of the generations before and after them.
[/quote]

I regard the moment I started doing this as the exact point I became out of touch with anything cool....

[toneknob]

Here's the full list...

20. Jimmy Mack – Martha & The Vandellas – 1967
19. Uptight (Everything’s Alright) – Stevie Wonder – 1966
18. Papa Was A Rollin’ Stone - The Temptations – 1972
17. What’s Going On – Marvin Gaye -1971
16. My Cherie Amour – Stevie Wonder -1969
15. I Can’t Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) – The Four Tops – 1965
14. My Guy – Mary Wells – 1964
13. The Tracks Of My Tears – Smokey Robinson & The Miracles – 1969
12. Reach Out I’ll Be There – The Four Tops – 1966
11. I Want You Back – The Jackson 5 – 1970
10. Stop! In The Name Of Love – The Supremes – 1965
9. War – Edwin Starr – 1970
8. Baby Love – The Supremes – 1964
7. I’ll Be There – The Jackson 5 – 1970
6. The Tears Of A Clown - Smokey Robinson & The Miracles – 1970
5. My Girl – The Temptations – 1964
4. Dancing In The Street - Martha & The Vandellas – 1964
3. Ain’t No Mountain High Enough – Diana Ross – 1970
2. What Becomes Of The Brokenhearted – Jimmy Ruffin – 1966
1. I Heard It Through The Grapevine – Marvin Gaye – 1969

I suspect a fair chunk of these feature James Jamerson - can the Motown bass boffs here provide a definitive list of those that definitely do (or don't?)

ps. the show is repeated next Saturday afternoon, 2.30pm

[Muzz]

I was initially startled to see that my first reaction to what'd be in the Top 20 Motown popular hits, Band of Gold by Freda Payne, wasn't on there. I've subsequently discovered that it technically wasn't a Motown record, despite being a Holland-Dozier-Holland song played by Mr Babbitt and the rest of the Funk Brothers...

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1404741588' post='2495260']
I was initially startled to see that my first reaction to what'd be in the Top 20 Motown popular hits, Band of Gold by Freda Payne, wasn't on there. I've subsequently discovered that it technically wasn't a Motown record, despite being a Holland-Dozier-Holland song played by Mr Babbitt and the rest of the Funk Brothers...
[/quote]
The Holland-Dozier-Holland / Invictus Records story would be worth a book on it's own.

Many Motown session players were moonlighting on Invictus, Hot Wax and Westbound sessions. I remember reading that Detroit guitarist Dennis Coffey saying that he didn't remember Jamerson playing on Hot Wax sessions although Bob Babbitt did play on a lot of those recordings. Many turned up on recordings by The Parliaments (later Parliament) on Revilot and Funkadelic recordings on Westbound. You can also hear the Motown influence on recording by The Flaming Embers, The Politicians, and numerous other Westbound, Invictus and Hot Wax records.

By the time Band Of Gold was recorded Holland-Dozier-Holland had already left Motown a couple of years before. The song was also co-written by Ron Dunbar who worked with George Clinton for many years as a performer and producer and of course Clinton himself had worked at Motown mainly was a songwriter.

One of the strangest Invictus signings was Ruth Copeland from Co Durham who was married to Motown producer Jeffrey Bowen who later became a producer for HDH at Invictus. Copeland had two albums released on Invictus in 1970 & 1971 and she also penned songs for George Clinton's Funkadelic & Parliament.

Edited July 7, 2014 by BetaFunk

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='toneknob' timestamp='1404740816' post='2495245'] Here's the full list... 20. Jimmy Mack – Martha & The Vandellas – 1967 19. Uptight (Everything’s Alright) – Stevie Wonder – 1966 18. Papa Was A Rollin’ Stone - The Temptations – 1972 17. What’s Going On – Marvin Gaye -1971 16. My Cherie Amour – Stevie Wonder -1969 15. I Can’t Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) – The Four Tops – 1965 14. My Guy – Mary Wells – 1964 13. The Tracks Of My Tears – Smokey Robinson & The Miracles – 1969 12. Reach Out I’ll Be There – The Four Tops – 1966 11. I Want You Back – The Jackson 5 – 1970 10. Stop! In The Name Of Love – The Supremes – 1965 9. War – Edwin Starr – 1970 8. Baby Love – The Supremes – 1964 7. I’ll Be There – The Jackson 5 – 1970 6. The Tears Of A Clown - Smokey Robinson & The Miracles – 1970 5. My Girl – The Temptations – 1964 4. Dancing In The Street - Martha & The Vandellas – 1964 3. Ain’t No Mountain High Enough – Diana Ross – 1970 2. What Becomes Of The Brokenhearted – Jimmy Ruffin – 1966 1. I Heard It Through The Grapevine – Marvin Gaye – 1969 I suspect a fair chunk of these feature James Jamerson - can the Motown bass boffs here provide a definitive list of those that definitely do (or don't?) [/quote]
I've read a lot on 'who played on what?' but i don't think there is a definitive answer. If there is i haven't found it yet.

Of the records listed Bob Babbitt always said he played on War and Tears Of A Clown while Carol Kaye is thought to have played I Can't Help Myself. Wilton Felder was also around at the time of the later recordings. I think it's fair to say that the majority were played by James Jamerson but who knows?

Edited July 7, 2014 by BetaFunk

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1404732729' post='2495108']
Regarding the debate about how Motown was perceived at the actual time of its' heyday in the 1960's and early 1970's, if you look back at documents of the time like music journalism and things that other musicians said in interviews, more often than not the perception of Motown was that it was rather formulaic and trite throwaway pop music. That view was quite wrong, of course, as we all now realize, but, as so often happens, at the time many people were blind to the great artistry and superb musicianship evident on so many of those records.

The critical and popular renaissance that Motown has enjoyed is similar to that of many bands from the 1970's, like ABBA , for example. At the height of their popularity they were derided by "serious" music fans and critics alike as trashy throwaway pop music, but nowadays they are revered by the very same people who hated them in those days as being great songsmiths and making timeless music of genuine quality . So much is a product of retrospect . Even bands like Led Zeppelin, despite selling a lot of records back in the 1970's, were never as widely celebrated or appreciated as they are now over thirty-odd years after their demiise. At the time, they were a cult act ( although it was a pretty big cult) .

[/quote]

Good post. I was born in 1956 so Motown formed a pretty substantial chunk of the soundtrack to my youth. I knew very few people who 'objected' to it, but plenty who (like me) thought it all sounded a bit the same, almost as if all those different bands had somehow managed to play the same as each other.

Little did we know.

In truth, I paid a lot more attention to the Beatles, the Stones, the Hollies, the Move, Manfred Mann, than I ever did to the Temptations or the Supremes.

I was amongst the many who took the piss out of Abba, but now recognise just how good many of those songs were. Except [i][b]Fernando[/b][/i].

Can't agree about Led Zep though. I wasn't a big fan, so I didn't bother to go, but I remember them selling out Earl's Court for three nights in 1975. In those days, that was about as big as it got. If that was a cult following, then it was one helluva cult.

One thing about last night's documentary ... as always I hated the interjections from current stars barely out of nappies who can't possibly have known much about the subject, but I had one genuine LOL moment when a youngster right at the end described Marvin's [i][b]Grapevine [/b][/i]as a song that made you feel 20% cooler every time you listened to it. Nail --> Head.

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1404746039' post='2495327']
One thing about last night's documentary ... as always I hated the interjections from current stars barely out of nappies who can't possibly have known much about the subject, but I had one genuine LOL moment when a youngster right at the end described Marvin's [i][b]Grapevine [/b][/i]as a song that made you feel 20% cooler every time you listened to it. Nail --> Head.
[/quote]
Yes, that was indeed a gem.

[JazzBassfreak]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1404736726' post='2495176']


It's all a matter of personal taste, innit.

I happen to love Motown... or Nothern Soul, which is the name I know it by. Catchy, dancefloor-friendly songs and some fantastic basslines. What's not to like? My father in law has a huge collection of original Northern Soul on vinyl, which is always a lot of fun to rifle through.

I'm sure much of it is indeed "[i]better than the rubbish that's coming out these days"[/i]. But by contrast, that doesn't necessarily make it better than the [i]good[/i] music that's coming out these days.

That's the beauty of music... it's always evolving, there's always good and bad, and each generation will always swear that[i] 'their' [/i]music is better than that of the generations before and after them. And so it will always be
[/quote]

So "Lil Wayne" has talent after all?

[Skol303]

[quote name='JazzBassfreak' timestamp='1404760207' post='2495511']


So "Lil Wayne" has talent after all?
[/quote]

Well he's not my cup of tea, but he has a talent for selling more records than most of us will ever do. And I doubt he'd lose any sleep over our opinions of him either

[starman]

Great programme, great music, I loved every second of it.

[OliverBlackman]

[quote name='JazzBassfreak' timestamp='1404760207' post='2495511']
So "Lil Wayne" has talent after all?
[/quote]

People usually define talent as someone who is really skilled at something. Are you saying Lil Wayne or Will I Am aren't highly skilled at anything? The skills they have chosen to obtain may be different to what you would like to think are "good", but the fact is they can do something very well, otherwise they wouldn't be successful. It's just that you don't like that particular thing that they do but unfortunately for you many other do.

Not saying I do, but at least I'm not naive enough to think todays music is all crap, purely based on personal taste.

[Lozz196]

I tried watching it but would have preferred just the music, so that`s what I did - stuck on my best of motown cd instead. I find motown to be so uplifting, it really puts me in a good mood. When my punk-playing days are behind me I think I`d like to set up a motown covers band.

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1404732729' post='2495108']
The critical and popular renaissance that Motown has enjoyed is similar to that of many bands from the 1970's, like ABBA , for example. At the height of their popularity they were derided by "serious" music fans and critics alike as trashy throwaway pop music, but nowadays they are revered by the very same people who hated them in those days as being great songsmiths and making timeless music of genuine quality . So much is a product of retrospect . Even bands like Led Zeppelin, despite selling a lot of records back in the 1970's, were never as widely celebrated or appreciated as they are now over thirty-odd years after their demiise. At the time, they were a cult act ( although it was a pretty big cult) .
[/quote]
I still think that ABBA are the height of naff and up there with ELO for kings (and queens) of bland. I always thought of them as an equal to Boney M. The passing years haven't made them sound any better to me. Led Zeppelin to me were grand old farts of rock in the 70s and so out of kilter of what was happening in music. A mantle that Queen admirably took over later. For anyone i knew around the music scene in the mid to late 70s Led Zeppelin were most definitely yesterday's heroes.

Edited July 7, 2014 by BetaFunk

[4 Strings]

[quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1404744488' post='2495305']
I've read a lot on 'who played on what?' but i don't think there is a definitive answer. If there is i haven't found it yet.

Of the records listed Bob Babbitt always said he played on War and Tears Of A Clown while Carol Kaye is thought to have played I Can't Help Myself. Wilton Felder was also around at the time of the later recordings. I think it's fair to say that the majority were played by James Jamerson but who knows?
[/quote]

Bob Babbit played on the UK version of Tears of a Clown, Michael Henderson on the US version. You can get both on Spotify, you'll recognise the UK version. Henderson's sounds a bit messy to me in comparison. I asked the great man himself while he was alive and manning his website about the two versions and he was kind enough to reply.

I have an isolated version of Can't Help Myself, while it's a written type bass line with virtually no space for timing/fills etc (Carol Kaye territory) it is definitely Jamerson. The sound, the strange dynamics, it's all Jamerson and sounds nothing like Kaye's playing - although that's no proof.


Edit> Just found the message from Bob, he notes Tony Newton as playing on the other track, not Michael Henderson, my mistake.

Edited July 8, 2014 by 4 Strings

[4 Strings]

[quote name='toneknob' timestamp='1404740816' post='2495245']
Here's the full list...

20. Jimmy Mack – Martha & The Vandellas – 1967 [color=#ff0000][i]Jamerson upright[/i][/color]
19. Uptight (Everything’s Alright) – Stevie Wonder – 1966 [color=#FF0000][i]Jamerson. [/i][/color][color=#ff0000][i]Weird timing[/i][/color]
18. Papa Was A Rollin’ Stone - The Temptations – 1972 [color=#ff0000][i]Not Jamerson, plectrum anyway.[/i][/color]
17. What’s Going On – Marvin Gaye -1971 [color=#FF0000][i]Jamerson[/i][/color]
16. My Cherie Amour – Stevie Wonder -1969 [color=#FF0000][i]Jamerson (just listen to it, expert playing!)[/i][/color]
15. I Can’t Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch) – The Four Tops – 1965 [color=#FF0000][i]Jamerson[/i][/color]
14. My Guy – Mary Wells – 1964 [color=#FF0000][i]Jamerson upright[/i][/color]
13. The Tracks Of My Tears – Smokey Robinson & The Miracles – 1969 [color=#FF0000][i]Jamerson - I believe, but not typical sound[/i][/color]
12. Reach Out I’ll Be There – The Four Tops – 1966 [color=#FF0000][i]Jamerson[/i][/color]
11. I Want You Back – The Jackson 5 – 1970 [color=#ff0000][i]Wilton Felder - just as amazing![/i][/color]
10. Stop! In The Name Of Love – The Supremes – 1965 [color=#FF0000][i]Jamerson[/i][/color]
9. War – Edwin Starr – 1970 [color=#FF0000][i]Jamerson?[/i][/color]
8. Baby Love – The Supremes – 1964 [color=#FF0000][i]Jamerson[/i][/color]
7. I’ll Be There – The Jackson 5 – 1970 [i][color=#ff0000]Doesn't sound like Jamerson to me[/color][/i]
6. The Tears Of A Clown - Smokey Robinson & The Miracles – 1970 [color=#ff0000][i]Bob Babbit (UK version)[/i][/color]
5. My Girl – The Temptations – 1964 [color=#FF0000][i]Jamerson[/i][/color]
4. Dancing In The Street - Martha & The Vandellas – 1964 [color=#FF0000][i]Jamerson (mainly by assumption)[/i][/color]
3. Ain’t No Mountain High Enough – Diana Ross – 1970 [color=#FF0000][i]Jamerson[/i][/color]
2. What Becomes Of The Brokenhearted – Jimmy Ruffin – 1966 [i][color=#ff0000]Jamerson (sound is a little different but would put money on it, the playing, grace notes etc very Jamerson)[/color][/i]
1. I Heard It Through The Grapevine – Marvin Gaye – 1969 [color=#FF0000][i]Jamerson[/i][/color]

I suspect a fair chunk of these feature James Jamerson - can the Motown bass boffs here provide a definitive list of those that definitely do (or don't?)
[/quote]

I'm not a Motown boff, but I have spent a long time on these basslines and, I think, know a Jamerson when I hear it, so above are my suggestions of which are his. Of these I would grant Carol Kaye could have played on Papa Was A Rolling Stone, but none of the others.

Would welcome any other suggestions.

Edited July 8, 2014 by 4 Strings

[BigRedX]

What people keep forgetting with Motown is that it was a much a factory as any of the car manufacturers who also populated the city. Berry Gordy was essentially the Simon Cowell of the 60s. He had a talent for spotting what would sell and marketing it appropriately and unsurprisingly some of the records have stood the test of time, but looking at the full Motown catalogue there's an lot of releases that are forgotten and quite rightly so because they were as just as much bland formulaic cash-ins as anything of a similar ilk todays (or from any other time in the intervening years).

[4 Strings]

Isolated version of Can't Help Myself

Note the bass drum pattern varies.

Not the most interesting song to play live(!) but note the rhythm is 'and one' with the pronounced dynamic on the 'one'.

(Couldn't attach the track, but here's Suchow's copy on You tube which, rather oddly, starts with a picture of James Jamerson Jnr)

[media]http://youtu.be/5ZUFGe06Ylw[/media]

Edited July 8, 2014 by 4 Strings

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1404805077' post='2495761']
I'm not a Motown boff, but I have spent a long time on these basslines and, I think, know a Jamerson when I hear it, so above are my suggestions of which are his. Of these I would grant Carol Kaye could have played on Papa Was A Rolling Stone, but none of the others.

Would welcome any other suggestions.
[/quote]
In the book Standing In The Shadows Of Motown - The Life & Times Of Legendary Bassist James Jamerson by Dr Licks 'I'll Be There' is listed.

You've obviously spent a lot of time on these basslines but wondered if you've played 'Darling Dear' by the Jackson 5. It's in Dr Licks book and is my favourite Motown bassline of all time.

[media]http://youtu.be/076hAabSqN0[/media]

This was on the 3rd Jackson 5 LP released in 1970.

Edited July 8, 2014 by BetaFunk

[Earbrass]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1404732729' post='2495108']
the perception of Motown was that it was rather formulaic and trite throwaway pop music. That view was quite wrong, of course, as we all now realize, [/quote]

In your opinion - still formulaic and trite throwaway pop music as far as I'm concerned - and that goes for ABBA too.

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1404805446' post='2495766']
What people keep forgetting with Motown is that it was a much a factory as any of the car manufacturers who also populated the city. Berry Gordy was essentially the Simon Cowell of the 60s. He had a talent for spotting what would sell and marketing it appropriately and unsurprisingly some of the records have stood the test of time, but looking at the full Motown catalogue there's an lot of releases that are forgotten and quite rightly so because they were as just as much bland formulaic cash-ins as anything of a similar ilk todays (or from any other time in the intervening years).
[/quote]
I don't think people do forget that Motown was a factory as every book i've read or documentary i've seen mentions the production line methods of Motown as a major part of it's success.
I agree that there was a lot of cash-ins and a lot of filler especially on LPs and also Motown artists recorded numerous versions of the same song time and time again just to fill space on albums.

Here's two Detroit production lines in full flow...........

http://youtu.be/17yfqxoSTFM

[lowdown]

Bob Babbitt on what happened regarding recording credits and payments (who played what).
"War" is an interesting little mess.....lol....

http://bobbabbitt.com/Bob_Babbitts_Site/Whos_Playing_Bass.html

Edited July 8, 2014 by lowdown

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1404809595' post='2495820']
Bob Babbitt on what happened regarding recording credits and payments (who played what).
"War" is an interesting little mess.....lol....

[url="http://bobbabbitt.com/Bob_Babbitts_Site/Whos_Playing_Bass.html"]http://bobbabbitt.co...aying_Bass.html[/url]
[/quote]
That's a good article that i have read before and it 's a typical story of what happened at Motown and that's why i said in an earlier post that there is no definitive list of 'who played on what?'.

[JTUK]

A shame that pretty important musical history can get so messed up.
It is entirely possible that players really believed they were on a track....
but they can't know how many tracks really exist or were recorded.

Same as Steely Dan..but they seemed to have better control of who did what
but Purdy tends to get credit for Peg when it was Marotta. This seems to be a public assumption
though, not Becker or Fagens.
When you rotate bands because you didn't like the end feel or whatever,
that is one thing, but throw in the more basic recording technology on the Motown era
where the track wasn't fixable..then it is understandable documentation gets mixed up.

I assume the players like Babbit got paid for the hours they worked regardless of who made the final cut..

[BigRedX]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1404815457' post='2495892']
A shame that pretty important musical history can get so messed up.
It is entirely possible that players really believed they were on a track....
but they can't know how many tracks really exist or were recorded.

Same as Steely Dan..but they seemed to have better control of who did what
but Purdy tends to get credit for Peg when it was Marotta. This seems to be a public assumption
though, not Becker or Fagens.
When you rotate bands because you didn't like the end feel or whatever,
that is one thing, but throw in the more basic recording technology on the Motown era
where the track wasn't fixable..then it is understandable documentation gets mixed up.

I assume the players like Babbit got paid for the hours they worked regardless of who made the final cut..
[/quote]

It was a factory. Just like no-one cares who bolted the doors on a car the actual musicians on the records were largely irrelevant at the time.

The import things were (in order):
1. The Record Label
2. The Songwriters
3. The Singers actually named on the record sleeve/label

I would imagine the musicians who played on those records were treated just like any other person working at the recording studio. They got paid for the hours they put in and that was it.

As far as the public was concerned the singers were the important people on the record. It's only been more recently that people have cared about who played on these records.