Westie9 Posted August 8, 2014 Author Share Posted August 8, 2014 Well the dreaded gig was last night! What a nightmare!!! I was watching the traffic light system all night long and couldn't relax or get into it. Yes, it tripped once but this was caused by the crowd getting rather too excited and egging the bride and groom on. Anywhere else and it would have been superb but a quick glint into the red and the power automatically turned off. As quick as it had gone off though it came back on but everything needed resetting. A complete nightmare.... Never again..... Thanks for all the replies..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westie9 Posted August 8, 2014 Author Share Posted August 8, 2014 Oh, the drummer did take is electric kit which helped greatly. It was more the frequency of the keyboards and guitar that got the thing excited.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismuzz Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 Had my first Sound Limiter gig last weekend. Never again! It was an outdoor gig so to be loud enough for anyone 10 feet away to enjoy it It cut out.. Which meant it did so in every single song for the first half an hour! We ended up refusing to play unless they bypassed it but by that time we were all in foul moods and the audience lost interest. Only saving grace was that we still got paid but I'd rather we cancelled weeks ago when I heard they'd had a Limiter installed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brensabre79 Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 They really need to re-think these. They are more often than not installed in a stupid place, badly calibrated and the microphones in them seem to respond to certain frequencies over others. the best way I saw of one being used was that it was hooked up to the lights only. Amp/PA power came from elsewhere... So if you hit the red for 2 seconds or more the lights went out on stage, the music continued, and the band quickly got the message that they needed to turn down a bit (as they were in darkness). The ents manager there understood the stupidity of the thing, but said they had to keep the volume reasonable, so this was his compromise. This way, the message was clear, but it didn't kill the vibe dead if a rogue snare drum tripped it. Not sure it was 100% legal, but certainly a more sane approach! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Smalls Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 They're a nightmare! I used to book bands for a local festival where the venue was a large village hall. They had a limiter - supposedly as a condition of their licence. On close inspection I discovered that the limiter was rated at 13amps (i.e. about 3kW), and covered all the sockets on the stage. Not only that, but it was set at 92dB, c weighted, which meant almost any bass would set it off. And we had Wilko Johnson booked! So basically, the village hall committee expected us to run PA (20kW!), plus lights (500W LEDs) and backline off a 13A circuit. With a digital desk, no soft-start on the PA amps and valve backline, damage would definitely have been done when the power went off - and back on again. So I contacted the council, who said we could have special dispensation to bypass the limiter; I told the committe this, and they said we still had to use it - even after I'd explained the difficulties... Luckily both the PA engineer and I are sparkies, so we quickly ran a 25mm cable to the stage and it all went swimmingly - traffic light happily on red for much of the gig! As a further happy ending, the local community also decided that the village hall committe were useless and they've all now gone to be replaced by reasonable folks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinnyman Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 At the risk of veering very slightly off topic, has anyone else noticed how difficult some wedding venues make it for live bands to play? We've had several this year that have insisted on us playing with an ultra-sensitive limiter, one that demanded to see our liability insurance and one that wanted to see our PRS licence (I know, I know). All the above venues would quite happily recommend their preferred DJ and I know for a fact that one of them turned the sound limiter off for him. Is this the hotels wanting to book everything including the entertainment? Or they just don't like bands? Or am I paranoid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 [quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1407496934' post='2521122'] They really need to re-think these. They are more often than not installed in a stupid place, badly calibrated and the microphones in them seem to respond to certain frequencies over others. the best way I saw of one being used was that it was hooked up to the lights only. Amp/PA power came from elsewhere... So if you hit the red for 2 seconds or more the lights went out on stage, the music continued, and the band quickly got the message that they needed to turn down a bit (as they were in darkness). The ents manager there understood the stupidity of the thing, but said they had to keep the volume reasonable, so this was his compromise. This way, the message was clear, but it didn't kill the vibe dead if a rogue snare drum tripped it. Not sure it was 100% legal, but certainly a more sane approach! [/quote] If you're going to use a limiter, that seems a really good approach! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlungerModerno Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 [quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1407531719' post='2521622'] If you're going to use a limiter, that seems a really good approach! [/quote] +1 I'd also say that the sensor should be outside the room if it's an indoor show - that way the better the sound isolation, the louder you can go - maybe a 125dB sensor inside and a 80dB sensor outside? At least that way the amount the neighbours hear is factored into the warning cutoff setting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanet Newbie Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 I only ever had one experience of a sound limiter. Me and a few (mature) friends were offered a venue for a small acoustic guitar club. Before we had finished tuning up on the first evening, we had tripped out the limiter...... We moved to another venue..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrtcat Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 I don't have any issues with venues having a limiter system but I have a major problem with venues that have a stupidly sensitive limiter bit still sell their venue to brides and grooms when they know they want a live band. These places then blame the band when the limiter trips. If you want to do function work then limiters are something you either deal with or don't do the gig. The first conversation we have with perspective customers involves a chat about whether there's a limiter and if so how sensitive it is. If we think we can't put on a decent show within the limits then we decline the work. Most times it can be done but it's rarely as much fun but that's why weddings etc pay reasonably well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 [quote name='PlungerModerno' timestamp='1407535878' post='2521676'] I'd also say that the sensor should be outside the room if it's an indoor show - that way the better the sound isolation, the louder you can go - maybe a 125dB sensor inside and a 80dB sensor outside? [/quote] I've encountered that. Every time someone opened the door, there was serious risk of the power going out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevorR Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 (edited) Apologies for the zombie thread but the recent wedding venue thread brought back the pains of playing with these things. Played in a number of venues withi these and often managed OK but there were a few nightmare stories. The worst thing was how badly set up they were. Where they were properly set up they were quite manageable although playing with one eye constantly on the traffic lights was a bit of a passion killer as you were always on tenterhooks. And we were never what you'd call a loud band either. A few particular events spring to mind. One was a b it of a laugh. The reset button was at the other end of the room behind a gate to which we were given the key. Since it was on my side of the stage it ended up being my job to take my bass off, jump of the stage, jog to the other end of the room, unlock the gate, switch it back on and then jog back to the stage while the band continued the song. The wedding crowd took it in really good humour and gave me a huge cheer like a marathon runner crossing the finishing line. By the end, when the trip switch went the audience would part to make a channel for me to jog down and clap me to the button and back to the stage! And what was setting it off? Super loud bass and drums? No, our female singer hitting either a B or a G. Every time. She did some interesting vocal gymnastics that night. Less good natured was the wedding where the groom was chair of the local rugby club. When we sound checked we realised that the trip switch was stupidly sensitive. A capella singing, over reactive in the vocal frequencies sensitive... We asked the kitchen staff if we could run an extension from the kitchen and got a serious bums rush. "Hotel policy mate, your problem not ours, that's the rules, like it or lump it, just play quiet..." So we trotted off to see the bride and her father and apologetically explained the issue. We said that we'd try our best but warned them that we doubted that we would make it through more than a couple of songs at a time without it tripping. At this point the groom was off with the rugby club guys having a bevvy so missed the chat. Soon after it was time for the first dance. Well, we made it through most of it with a tenterhooks performance but in the last chorus the switch tripped, gaining us disapproving looks from the audience. The trip was behind me so I quickly flicked it back. Next song, Brown Eyed Girl, it tripped twice. Next song, a super quiet version of Half a World Away and it decided it didn't like one of the notes in the verse and tripped every time the singer got there. At this point there was an entire, already tipsy rugby team gathered In front of the stage ready to rip us to shreds for ripping off their chum by charging them a fortune and then coming along with cr@ppy gear that didn't work and ruining their mate's wedding. When we explained that it was the trip switch they told us (in no uncertain terms) to F-off and stop making excuses. Somehow we managed to calm them down, showed them the traffic light and demonstrated how I could turn up my bass excruciatingly loud while the drummer battered like Jason Bonham and the traffic light barely touched the Amber. Next our singer quietly strummed his acoustic and sang the verse again and the red light immediately maxed out. Off went the PA system and all the amps. This convinced them. About three minutes later some rather shaken kitchen staff arrived with an extension cable and the rest of the gig went like a blinder. Though, I have never before felt closer to being beaten to a bloody pulp. Noise limiters. Hate the things! Edited July 27, 2016 by TrevorR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidder652003 Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 great story! People power, the locals are revolting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassjim Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 [quote name='mrtcat' timestamp='1409312662' post='2538538'] I don't have any issues with venues having a limiter system but I have a major problem with venues that have a stupidly sensitive limiter bit still sell their venue to brides and grooms when they know they want a live band. These places then blame the band when the limiter trips. If you want to do function work then limiters are something you either deal with or don't do the gig. The first conversation we have with perspective customers involves a chat about whether there's a limiter and if so how sensitive it is. If we think we can't put on a decent show within the limits then we decline the work. Most times it can be done but it's rarely as much fun but that's why weddings etc pay reasonably well. [/quote] +1 !! the venues just want the money! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassjim Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 [quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1407496934' post='2521122'] They really need to re-think these. They are more often than not installed in a stupid place, badly calibrated and the microphones in them seem to respond to certain frequencies over others. the best way I saw of one being used was that it was hooked up to the lights only. Amp/PA power came from elsewhere... So if you hit the red for 2 seconds or more the lights went out on stage, the music continued, and the band quickly got the message that they needed to turn down a bit (as they were in darkness). The ents manager there understood the stupidity of the thing, but said they had to keep the volume reasonable, so this was his compromise. This way, the message was clear, but it didn't kill the vibe dead if a rogue snare drum tripped it. Not sure it was 100% legal, but certainly a more sane approach! [/quote]This has got to be the answer! Maybe a 20 strikes and you're out kinda rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassjim Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 I wonder if any venues would enter into a contract with any band to say: in the event the use of the limiter causes any damage to the bands equipment due to the improper positioning, inaccurate calibration ect ,they will be responsible for repairs,replacements and any subsequent need to hire equipment. Unlikely I imagine! Also I wonder if you would have a case to make a claim on yours or their insurance in such an event? Would you be within your rights a perfomer to make the venue aware you will seek damages if this were to happen? Hmmmm...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4stringslow Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 But what damage could a limiter power trip do that a genuine power cut couldn't? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 We encountered a new one (to us) last week - a compresser limiter: crappy down-pointing speakers over the dancefloor, and a PA set to squish and compress into mush anything over 90db. We made sure the B&G were aware of the limitations before we started, so they weren't upset with us, but it was a tiptoeing nightmare. Why some venues advertise as a live venue is beyond me...well, the money, obviously, but no-one enjoys it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 [quote name='4stringslow' timestamp='1469700138' post='3100381'] But what damage could a limiter power trip do that a genuine power cut couldn't? [/quote] Quite. The problem occurs when it's reset and you still have all the faders up. Ouch! Just make sure you ask the question before you accept any gig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 [quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1469700237' post='3100383'] We encountered a new one (to us) last week - a compresser limiter: crappy down-pointing speakers over the dancefloor, and a PA set to squish and compress into mush anything over 90db. We made sure the B&G were aware of the limitations before we started, so they weren't upset with us, but it was a tiptoeing nightmare. Why some venues advertise as a live venue is beyond me...well, the money, obviously, but no-one enjoys it... [/quote] Surely a limiter on the whole mix is preferable to a cut-out system? I'd have thought this would work pretty well. I guess the threshold was just set too low? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Yeah, in theory I guess better than complete cutoffs, and at a reasonable limit it'd possibly work better, but because we could barely hear the speakers, with them being 15ft away at the front of the dance floor and down-pointing (and the band had to set up at 90 degrees to them, effectively down the side of the dance floor), I had to keep walking out in the crowd and under the speakers, only to find the vocals and acoustic (we couldn't put anything else through it) sounded like a very badly tuned AM radio. Much more potential for the band to be blamed for a rubbish sound... It was a very badly implemented version of a possibly workable concept, and at those levels, it simply wasn't a venue for live music beyond an acoustic duo... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4stringslow Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Perhaps part of the problem for a wedding band is the eclectic nature of the audience. Some will be enthusiastic about getting up to dance while others will be more interested in chatting to all those far-flung relations they haven't seen for years. Plus, who wants to go away from a wedding with their ears ringing or have to wear earplugs? I was at a wedding last weekend (guest, not playing) and the band got the volume thing spot on. It was a large marquee with half the sides folded up because it was pretty warm but their volume was plenty for the dance floor at one end of the marquee while at the other end guests could still have a conversation without having to shout at each other. I guess a marquee might be easier in this respect than an enclosed room or hall, but even so there is a happy medium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 While I'd like to think venues like the one we played has the best interests of all partygoers at heart, I know that his particular venue (and many others I've played) has issues with external noise disturbance from their marquees, which are pretty much acoustically transparent compared to a proper indoor venue. Doesn't stop them going ahead, of course, and they look lovely on the website, etc... We invariably play quieter at weddings (venue dictating) than elsewhere, and nobody would need earplugs at any of our gigs, but when you can hear people chatting on the dancefloor, and shoes squeaking, it just isn't loud enough, given the broad range of music we play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4stringslow Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 I agree that hearing people chatting on the dance floor would suggest the volume is a bit low. As for squeaking shoes . . . Noise nuisance wasn't a problem at the wedding I attended as the marquee was in the middle of a field on a large farm, so the band could have turned up to 11 with no neighbour problems, but they were admirably restrained and got it just right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Very rare: that's akin to the definition of a gentleman as someone who can play the accordion...but doesn't. Oddly, some of the more remote country house hotels seem to have the most, erm, problematic neighbours: one we went to, the manager took us outside and said "There's the problem - him over there: he always complains, and the police always listen to him" and pointed to a converted farm about half a mile away... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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