Bassnut62 Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 How many times has a venue tried it on with you like this? And what a great reply! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spinynorman Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 :-) Maybe there's a new business model there. A restaurant where the meal is free, but there's screens all round the walls playing adverts and every 5 minutes the waiter comes round asking if you want to buy something or look at a brochure. It works online… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanAxe Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Brilliant! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davehux Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 [quote name='spinynorman' timestamp='1396613167' post='2415678'] :-) Maybe there's a new business model there. A restaurant where the meal is free, but there's screens all round the walls playing adverts and every 5 minutes the waiter comes round asking if you want to buy something or look at a brochure. It works online… [/quote] Substitute Ryanair/Easyjet for restaurant and flight for meal, and I think you'll find it's already in use Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 I can't see the problem - well, I can, but I don't know why people get all uptight about it. It's a simple request and you're either interested or you're. What would you prefer - a law stating that no musician can play for free if they wish to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreek Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 I like the man's thinking... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 I thought this one had died out after doing the rounds last year. It's not a good analogy and his grammar is a bit crap, but a lot of people liked it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Bassy Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 [quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1396626275' post='2415834'] I thought this one had died out after doing the rounds last year. It's not a good analogy and his grammar is a bit crap, but a lot of people liked it. [/quote] I thought it was quite a good analogy, though I agree about the grammar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diablo Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Is it not the same as an open mic? Musicians play for free and the bar/food makes the money for the venue? I've booked to do an hour tonight with me band, we use it as a free rehearsal room as much as anything else. A large hall for free to practice in is much better than £8/hr for a stinky cupboard at the local music place in Darlo. I'm sure we'll also end up at the bar at some point too! Suppose I'd better get on an rehearse! Cheers, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanAxe Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 [quote name='Diablo' timestamp='1396630556' post='2415911'] Is it not the same as an open mic? Musicians play for free and the bar/food makes the money for the venue? I've booked to do an hour tonight with me band, we use it as a free rehearsal room as much as anything else. A large hall for free to practice in is much better than £8/hr for a stinky cupboard at the local music place in Darlo. I'm sure we'll also end up at the bar at some point too! Suppose I'd better get on an rehearse! Cheers, Rich [/quote] I have used open mic nights to road test songs for my band, but that's not the same as giving a professional performance at a venue and then not getting paid for it. Sure if it suits you to play for free, do it, but don't forget you have just set a market price for your services. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 (edited) [quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1396630979' post='2415918'] Sure if it suits you to play for free, do it, but don't forget you have just set a market price for your services. [/quote] What's that old saying about knowing the price of everything but the value of nothing? Is charity really dead these days? Edited April 4, 2014 by flyfisher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanAxe Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1396646232' post='2416143'] What's that old saying about knowing the price of everything but the value of nothing? Is charity really dead these days? [/quote] The scenario in the OP's clip is a commercial enterprise inviting musos to play for free as a 'promotional opportunity' - not a charity. That's a whole other thread, which I think has been done! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 I meant charity in the informal sense of giving freely for no reward, just the pleasure of giving. Money changes everything and not always for the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 (edited) [quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1396649262' post='2416196'] The scenario in the OP's clip is a commercial enterprise inviting musos to play for free as a 'promotional opportunity' - not a charity. That's a whole other thread, which I think has been done! [/quote] Quite similar to a uniformed lady offering one samples of cheese or salami in a supermarket. promoting their goods. For free (to the consumer; nothing is 'absolutely' free...). Why shouldn't a budding songster show his wares in such an establishment..? It's a start-up venture, too, it would seem. It might take off, for the benefit, maybe, of all concerned. Still, if it's preferable to stay at home because no-one's offering enough to go out, that, too, is a legitimate choice. To each his own. ...and where are 'market forces' when they're needed..? If 'zilch' is the 'going rate', isn't that normal in that context..? The title is misleading; no-one's 'expected' to play for free, only invited to. Edited April 4, 2014 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 (edited) I never saw the word 'free'.... We normally take a call about playing, listen to what they propose and then tell them what the fee will be... If that stops the conversation dead in its tracks then so be it.... but in regard to the OP... I can see why the implication is a free gig, as is the reply, but not the atual wording, itself. I wouldn't take offence, I would just tell them what it would cost them. If the booker assumes we will play for free, we never do....so it comes to a head pretty quickly. It is like charity gigs...they aren't looking to pay exes unless you ask them. Edited April 5, 2014 by JTUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 Exactly right. Everything is negotiable, but not every negotiation will end with a deal. There is no compulsion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassnut62 Posted April 5, 2014 Author Share Posted April 5, 2014 (edited) Just to clarify....the extract I posted up seemed to me to be about venues or restaurants exploiting musicians. It seemed like they want to improve the atmosphere with a bit of live music; but don't want to pay for it. Clearly the restaurant is open for business; I don't suppose they are giving the food away free. So they seem in effect to be proposing to improve their offer and trade, but do not appear to be prepared to pay the musicians who are adding a significant part of that offer. I think it is a totally different situation if it's for charity or for a mate or indeed if it's a genuine promotional opportunity likely to bring tangible audience growth or paying bookings; but this did not seem to be the case. In fact my disco band would always insist on at least expenses for any situation. Try asking 9 plumbers to come and work for free in a restaurant on the off chance that it might bring them some business! I don't believe it makes much difference whether you are in a band professionally or for fun either; the costs of instruments, amps, travel, promotion, etc are still the same either way. Edited April 5, 2014 by Bassnut62 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacey Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 The latest one is "charity " nights, pick a charity, any charity, find some musicains to work for bugger all by guilt tripping them and stuff the bar till with cash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 I seem to remember that we've been here before. I thought that we had come to some kind of concensus that different folks have different views of how their playing is rewarded; some are not as commercial as others. There are those who don't mind being 'exploited', and don't need nor want their expenses paid (think of it as a hobby, with associated costs born by the hobbyist...). I don't see why umbrage has to be taken with such views, nor do I see why those that play for a fee need be treated as mercenary. It's just different perspectives on the world. What's new here that we haven't beaten into the ground already..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassnut62 Posted April 5, 2014 Author Share Posted April 5, 2014 fair points I would say, Dad nice to keep balanced perspective always and not object to views of others Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Dave Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 (edited) If I'm making brass for someone else I want my fair whack. Simple. I'm also well suspicious of benefit/charity things - you know the deal , where a landlord gives 'a percentage' to the charity. OK - pay me my full whack and I'll give the same percentage to the cause !! There's one born every minute - so wake up and smell the coffee as quick as you can if you don't want to be taken advantage of. Remember this - if you play for sod all , what will the venue say to the young band who want to play next week? The young band that need cash to buy better gear or buy recording time? Those kids will be told to play for nothing too or bugger off - and YOU made that happen. Edited April 5, 2014 by Dr.Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_5 Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 A 'free' gig like the one in the OP is probably the one where you play about 40 seconds of each song (rather like the 'preview' function in iTunes) - it's the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 (edited) [quote name='Dr.Dave' timestamp='1396710532' post='2416668']...if you don't want to be taken advantage of...[/quote] ...which was somewhat my point; I don't think of it as 'being taken advantage of', and I'm not a jealous guy. If someone else is earning through my efforts, I'd be more pleased than upset. Money is not my driving force. [quote name='Dr.Dave' timestamp='1396710532' post='2416668']...what will the venue say to the young band who want to play next week?...[/quote] If the venue thinks they're worth what they're asking, they'll get it; if not, not. Not convinced that I'm even in the equation, unless I'm vying for the same week-end. In that case, they'd better be good to give better value for money than my unpaid performance, as we're pretty good, despite playing for nowt. As I said, it's horses for courses and different visions. If you see things differently, that's fine. I'm not going to start insulting you, but I'm not going to change my outlook, either. Edited April 5, 2014 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 But it just doesn't help if Venues book free bands as that sets the precedent for everyone else. And once you get a stream of people willing to play for free, bands that don't wish to do that, don't get a look in. Every pub will have a charity beer festival this year and some might put on a whole bill all day and they'll get plenty of takers but band doing that are just as bad as the ones who use an agent to get in a gig and then go straight and direct to the LL for subsequent gigs. Even if it wasn't always true, I'd be of the opinion that you pay peanuts, you get monkees and once you 'allow' a venue to get this advantage, you'll never get them to stop that tactic.... If the bar staff. security and Sound etc etc get paid, so do we...but so many bands will blow that ethic right out of the water, Am I pleased about that... ? The amount of festivals round here that want to have free bills...well, you can see why some are cynics..!! Suffice to say most decent bands don't play them... and you can virtually tell if it is free by the line-up. Is there a stigma about free bands...? I'd say there was...at least around here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1396709716' post='2416659'] What's new here that we haven't beaten into the ground already..? [/quote] Perhaps we might erect a sign to this effect over the doors to Off-Topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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