Musicians expected to play for nothing by 'generous' venues

[fretmeister]

And yet I don't see them inviting electricians and caterers to work there in exchange for a free ticket.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1396975816' post='2419372']
£120 for a ticket. Arrive at 5am. Don't get out until late.

If I did an entire day roaming magic (which I do sometimes) I'd be wanting £800 at the very least for a 12 hour shift.
[/quote]

But if you're an F1 fan then you'll be happy to pay the £120, arrive at 5am and get out late. Silverstone are offering the opportunity to watch the race for free (fans won't want entertaining during the actual racing) in return for a bit of entertaining. That's all - take it or leave it.

Seems to me that too many people are too keen to tell other people what they should or shouldn't be doing.

[icastle]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1396972770' post='2419314']
The statistics vary wildly but I've seen profit per pint quoted as being between 12p and £1.10. Even at the higher figure a landlord will have to sell an extra 200 or so pints to cover the band. That's around 50 people at 4 pints each or about 66 people at 3 pints each - just to break even. Now there may be local bands who can regularly pull 66 punters whenever they play. But can they guarantee it? If not, the landlord loses money.
[/quote]

My understanding is that many breweries have a entertainments budget which is used as a tax write off anyway.
If that's the case then the gamble for the landlord isn't quite as large, or indeed, clear cut.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1396976148' post='2419380']
And yet I don't see them inviting electricians and caterers to work there in exchange for a free ticket.
[/quote]

I may do no more than reproduce Silverstone's tweet:

[color=#000000][font=Arial, sans-serif]We defo don't have all the money in F1... They will get tickets but if bands don't want to volunteer they don't have to![/font][/color]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1396976593' post='2419388']
Seems to me that too many people are too keen to tell other people what they should or shouldn't be doing.
[/quote]

It is the social phenomenon [i]de nos jours. [/i] In the old days the response to a proposition of this nature might have been 'I'll pass on that, thank you' while perhaps silently observing to oneself that the propositioner might poke his offer.

The contemporary style goes along the lines of: 'How very f**king dare you? I am outraged on behalf of hard working families up and down the country. I shall start a Facebook group to demand your company be shut down by the guvvinment' with no actual intent of doing anything at all. It is self-display gone mad.

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1396977248' post='2419396']
My understanding is that many breweries have a entertainments budget which is used as a tax write off anyway.
If that's the case then the gamble for the landlord isn't quite as large, or indeed, clear cut.
[/quote]

Firstly it depends whether the landlord is an employee of the chain [i]or[/i] a tenant / free-house landlord who does not have access to a centralised budget.

In any event, while such expenditure may be set against profits for tax purposes, no amount of tax breaks will overcome an absence of profits. In such cases it merely reduces the loss after tax; which in the greater scheme of things is precious little use to the loss-making landlord or company.

Edited April 8, 2014 by skankdelvar

[JTUK]

[quote name='spinynorman' timestamp='1396965878' post='2419192']
In that case, though, isn't getting A&R there a benefit to the band, which might outweigh getting paid?
[/quote]

In my case, no.. but then again I never expected the singer/songwriter would be able to retain and afford a band..
so my fee was always a standalone/one-off.

At forst you get suckered in and do them for your 'mates'...but you get wise pretty quick.
Tough to make your petrol money but that REALLY does teach you the value of getting people to come out.

Difficult to say what the margins are but in a pub we do, he sells at £2.50 a pint.
I asked him how he could do it and he said he was buying a barrel at £45-60...which could be half what the tied brewery deal will sell at.
Another LL sells his Doombar at £3.60 on a music night and a few will 50-60 plus for the most of the evening.
The LL says he has 2-30 regulars who will pretty much support most nights so a band only hase to bring in 30 or so and
he will have a very good night.
There are a few ways a band will do this... plague their mates with FB invites, huge familiy or friends type thing
or just being good enough to keep the people who see you, coming back.

But.... I still say music nights would be helped if the number of pubs being able to do music was cut...by making the license
more worthwhile and not cheap..and therefore that would squeeze out the poorer bands... and poorer venues.
The best pubs/venues have a tight get in policy and bands can't speculate their way in...they are invited or endorsed by a local.
That is a bit extreme, but works for one or two... Funnily enough one of them was run by a tight Scotsman who ran excellent bills
with pretty much the pick of bands..and then only the ones he liked, but he was a real tightwad. Which was a bit rich when he had a
special event and the very average buffet grub he put on cost a bomb... hmmmmmmm..!!

[icastle]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1396977430' post='2419401']
In any event, while such expenditure may be set against profits for tax purposes, no amount of tax breaks will overcome an absence of profits. In such cases it merely reduces the loss after tax; which in the greater scheme of things is precious little use to the loss-making landlord or company.
[/quote]

That kinda depends on how well the pub has done prior to letting the band within half a mile of the place.

[Diablo]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1396975890' post='2419375']
In fairness, Silverstone Circuits Ltd is a loss-making business currently owned by the British Racing Drivers Club, itself a not-for-profit membership association. Silverstone is not part of Mr Ecclestone's Formula 1 organisation with whom it has until recently enjoyed an adversarial relationship.

Far from being a rich player, Silverstone is pretty much on its uppers and- rather like the impecunious pub landlord - will seek to cover its costs in any way possible. In the last couple of years Silverstone and the BRDC have attempted to cover the circuit's enormous debts by selling certain parcels of land for commercial usage.

The BRDC is now alleged to be in discussions with an un-named party to sell the track; the purpose of the sale is presumably to reduce the financial drag on the BRDC's other activities which include race driver educational programmes.

In any event, the situation is the same as might pertain elsewhere. If one does not wish to play for free, one may politely reject the invitation.
[/quote]

Can you please stop posting common sense, it spoils an entertaining but ultimately misguided thread.

Silverstone PAY F1 to be there, not the other way round. All it needs is terrible weather and it turns unto a huge loss-making exercise for them (not BE or course) which takes years to recover from. Oh - like a couple of years ago.

Cheers,
Rich

[peteb]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1396972770' post='2419314']

Too many of us delude ourselves that we are semi-pros when in truth we are amateurs - that is - 'someone who does something for free because they like it'. At root, most of us are far more interested in playing in front of an audience than we are in delivering that audience. Why this insistence on getting paid if we neglect the business side of things?
[/quote]
You speak for yourself sunshine!

However, you do have a point – there are plenty of bands out there who are incredibly amateurish and have no business playing in public! If they are prepared to play for free then they are putting a value on what is essentially a product they are providing in a commercial environment (i.e. playing a gig in a pub) and that value is NOTHING! Why should a landlord bother to take such a band seriously and promote their gig? Bear in mind that plenty of landlords are just as amateurish as the bands they book and find that the idea of a band who are prepared to play for nothing seems very attractive. Of course, after a few weeks of cr*p bands they wonder why they have an empty pub on gig nights and blame it on a lack of demand for live music!

That is not to say that I will not occasionally play a gig at a loss where it seems like the gig will provide exposure for the band, or just because we fancy doing it. Therefore I could be a few quid out of pocket after diesel, a couple of pints and a Travelodge for the night but the point is that the promoter / organiser (these types of gigs tend not to be pubs) have had to put their hand in their pocket to pay the band (even if it doesn’t cover our expenses). Therefore they have an interest in promoting the event to ensure that it is a success in order to get their money back…!

[Annoying Twit]

I'm not directly involved in this as I don't perform live. And if I did, it would be as an amateur.

But, I have one question. Many pub and club gigs seem to be based on the expectation that a band will have a following that will bring paying customers. How does a band build a following if they don't play live? And how will they play live for pay if they don't have a following?

Is it a plausible model that a band which feels that it has a good product, but no following, will play for free until it is able to build a following, which gives it a stronger negotiating position with landlords and promoters. There seems to be an assumption in this thread that whether or not a band is only able to play for free only depends on the quality of the product. I could be wrong here, but I would expect that the size of the following is also a very important factor, and the quality of the product impacts mainly in how it affects the ability of the band to build a following. But, a band can't always just build a following immediately, it will take time. So, what does the band do in the meantime?

It is a common business model for new products (e.g. foods) that free samples will be given away so that consumers are likely to try out the product. And if they find the product of high quality, they may well return as a paying customer. Does this not apply to music?

[JTUK]

It is all about who is buying what you are selling.
Obviously venues/bookers may have to take a punt on an unknown entity/band
so they aren't likely to pay 'top dollar' straight away.
There will always be nervy moments in the transaction: the band might know they aren't ready
for their first gig, and the LL can hardly know what will turn up until the night.
There are things that mitigate..track records, known players, etc etc but both LL and
band should be gearing up to making a splash in terms of performance and attendence.
This endears both parties to a good working relationship. We tend to wrok with LL we like
and we think are fair. We held a price for a very long time in this good faith and now
we need to renegoiate as the pub - thru their own very good efforts- and us are on a much better
footing with regards to the way the whole gig works.
But, yes, to think there is no correlation between the fee and attendence is naive.
The best gigs have this decent balance with both parties happy all round.

Also, one of the locals round here has worked very hard to get established as a music pub and
so his regulars and the bands pull add upto very good nights. The trick here now, IMO,is to keep the standard
going so those will all be returnees. How hard that is, is another thing?

FWIW, It helps if bands that play places also go back as a punter

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1396997971' post='2419709']
You speak for yourself sunshine![/quote]



Thing is, Pete, you and a sizeable minority here are in 'proper' working pro or semi-pro bands. You've paid your dues and you can legitimately command a 'proper' fee. I suspect there are a greater number of hobbyists here (like myself) who are operating in an entirely different league. They probably play the venues you avoid.

Some of these hobbyist bands expect to get paid the same money as you. Others do (inc myself) do not.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1397039182' post='2419935']
But, I have one question. Many pub and club gigs seem to be based on the expectation that a band will have a following that will bring paying customers. How does a band build a following if they don't play live? And how will they play live for pay if they don't have a following?
[/quote]

That an interesting point, to which I'd also ask how many hobby/semi-pro bands can command a significant following that are prepared to pay to see the same band time every week? If the band has a national following and the band travels to gigs all over the country then perhaps their regional followers will pay to see them every couple of months or so, but the more local the band, the more local their following and if the band is playing every week (or more) then will that following really pay to see the same band every week.

I can't think of any band that I'd want to see every week. Maybe for a few weeks, but not much more.

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1397039182' post='2419935']
There seems to be an assumption in this thread that whether or not a band is only able to play for free only depends on the quality of the product.
[/quote]

The 'quality' of a band is subjective and utterly irrelevent... what counts is how many people will turn out to watch them.

If people will come to the venue to watch you, then you have something the venue can benefit from and you are therefore in a position to charge for your product... If no-one cares about your band, it doesnt matter at all how good you are, the marketability of your product depends on people coming out to see you who would otherwise be at home.

[spacey]

Agree with that, the bands that draw tend to be a bit out of the box, the bands that play sex on fire and boys are back in town for the 30th time that year tend to be the ones that struggle.
Punters like bands to be a bite more specific these days.

[JTUK]

It is a difficult equation.
We had to pull out of pubs when we had a ticketed gig in a town.
It was a bit rich that the ticked gig was offered by a Brewery who supplied most of the town
and it was their LL's who said we where taking business away from their pubs..
The fact that some of the pubs never had a gig that night seemed to escape them but there you go.

Anyway, the upshot was that we had to stop playing that town 6 weeks prior to out ticket gig.
This helped us sell our tickets and it worked out in the end.
Friends band, who very rarely play the town these days, sold out the venue within 29 hrs...at £10 a ticket, iirc.
So, despite what I think about the band... and sense the tone here ...you just have to stand
back and say 'well done' as that is a very good effort for a cover band.
This type of stat gets that band into one of the very top acts around... on pulling power alone.

I think any local cover band who can sell 350 tickets is doing expectionally well... and they certainly have
a selling point.

This is another reason we try to keep pubs dates down to around 4-5 pubs... as it impacts on sat night party dates
where we get far more money...and those same bookers don't want to pay 3x what they believe they know the pub fee to be.

For the same reason... we have to keep our prices consistant as pubs/venues/LL's talk.
And if they don't, then they should do.

We are having to drop our best pub date unless we can renegoitate.. and we have to do that to be fair to the other pubs that pay us more.

So..once you get around... it can actually benefit if you play less pubs...and to charge more you must also be prepared to offer something more.
We do this by augmenting the band...sell it as a different show etc etc ..and it may well be that we can only offer that to 2 types of gig per year.

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='spacey' timestamp='1397048456' post='2420095']
Agree with that, the bands that draw tend to be a bit out of the box, the bands that play sex on fire and boys are back in town for the 30th time that year tend to be the ones that struggle.
Punters like bands to be a bite more specific these days.
[/quote]

Indeed... Although it depends on the venue obviously. If the Dog and Duck's punters want rock covers and thats what brings people out, then as the top band doing that sort of thing in your area you can also charge a premium.

It all boils down to whether a venue will make money from the people who are there to see you.

Edited April 9, 2014 by CamdenRob

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1397048069' post='2420084']
The 'quality' of a band is subjective and utterly irrelevent... what counts is how many people will turn out to watch them.

If people will come to the venue to watch you, then you have something the venue can benefit from and you are therefore in a position to charge for your product... If no-one cares about your band, it doesnt matter at all how good you are, the marketability of your product depends on people coming out to see you who would otherwise be at home.
[/quote]

So, how do bands build a following if we posited a world where they shouldn't ever play for free?

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1397054599' post='2420190']
So, how do bands build a following if we posited a world where they shouldn't ever play for free?
[/quote]

I don't follow? 'm arguing for playing for free if your not commercially viable enough to warrent charging a fee?

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1397054599' post='2420190']
So, how do bands build a following if we posited a world where they shouldn't ever play for free?
[/quote]

One route is to be one's own promoter. Hire a room, advertise the gig, charge a small fee at the door to cover (some of the) costs.

The reality is that most hobby bands who gig will prefer the financial safety net provided by a paying landlord. Also - and I honestly don't mean this to sound unkind - it makes them feel like a 'real' band. For some, playing for free makes them feel 'unprofessional'.

The only stipulation I've ever made is that I won't pay to play (unless it's me doing the promoting, if you see what I mean). Other than that I'd tailor my fee to the circumstances and 'free' is always a possibility.

[peteb]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1397046629' post='2420050']




Thing is, Pete, you and a sizeable minority here are in 'proper' working pro or semi-pro bands. You've paid your dues and you can legitimately command a 'proper' fee. I suspect there are a greater number of hobbyists here (like myself) who are operating in an entirely different league. They probably play the venues you avoid.

Some of these hobbyist bands expect to get paid the same money as you. Others do (inc myself) do not.
[/quote]
By the way, ‘You speak for yourself sunshine’ was supposed to be delivered in an Eric Morecambe voice and probably should have been accompanied by a smiley!

You are right that there is an element of having paid dues. You can see that I think that there is a problem that some people here think that it doesn’t matter if they know what a simple scale is, yet are prepared to subject innocent punters performing at what can only be described as a gig! This does nothing to encourage said punters to regularly support local gigs in pubs.

If you look at it from a Landlord’s perspective – to run a successful music pub you will generally have to put on live music every Friday and Saturday night every week of the year (maybe only Saturdays in January). You do that you would need a roster of maybe 25 to 40 decent bands (each playing 2 or 3 times a year), of which say 10 bands can be relied to pack the place and the rest will draw a sufficient crowd to ensure that you still make some money and tick over. But, of course, it is unlikely that there are going to be 25 local bands of that standard, not to mention that bands do break up or have to cancel for various reasons, etc!

Therefore the landlord needs to widen his net and leave a few slots open for bands from outside the area to play. Obviously, the first time a non-local band play no one will know who they are and are unlikely to pack the place out. But, if the pub has a reputation for putting decent bands on there will be a hard core of regulars who will come on spec anyway. Hopefully the band will go down well with the regulars and they will start to build a following in that area and pull more next time they play there. Of course, this requires the landlord to do his homework to get the right bands and the bands to make the most of any positive feedback and to promote the next gig on social media, etc.

Now, I might be interested in doing a pub gig 50 miles away (even it costs more in diesel / time to get there) if it potentially opens up a new market and helps to fill up the diary. But I am not prepared to do so for no money – I might as well take a more local gig or just go to the pub to see one of my mate’s bands play! Not to mention that if a landlord is not prepared to invest some money to discover a new band he probably won’t bother to promote the gig in any way!

Of course, many landlords will take the easy option and book rubbish local bands who are prepared to play for nothing! These same landlords will be in their empty pub on a Saturday night, moaning that putting on live music is a waste of time and blaming the bands…

[JTUK]

.............Of course, many landlords will take the easy option and book rubbish local bands who are prepared to play for nothing! These same landlords will be in their empty pub on a Saturday night, moaning that putting on live music is a waste of time and blaming the bands….........

I've had this same 'discussion' with a silly bint publicist who was bemoaning a promoter and a venue because none turned up to
see her band that she was 'pushing'.
I just said it was the bands responsibility to get people there as well, which she just couldn't get,
She said it was different for originals and that I didn't understand. The simple economics were that
you need people thru the door and if the band has been going for 10 years plus, maybe she should
come to the conclusion that no one is buying what they are selling. These same people are always
going on about supporting live music... but I never ever ever see them out supporting music..
so I guess they mean 'their special brand of live music'....

Anyway, both bands and the venue have a vested interest in promoting the gig...but not so much
if the venue wants 4 bands to sell 20 tickets each and play for free as well..or 20% of the tickets
they sell at the most...and on a ...er... monday night. You have to be a bit smarter than that....

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1397059428' post='2420261']
I don't follow? 'm arguing for playing for free if your not commercially viable enough to warrent charging a fee?
[/quote]

Ah I see. I didn't quite grok that from the post I quoted.

[icastle]

Most of my bands gigs are private functions so we do tend no to have too many pub gigs.

We do about 4 or 5 a year and use them as showcases to which we invite prospective clients along to - always the same pub.

The locals like us and a good plastering of posters a few weeks beforehand ensures that they always turn out.
Prospective clients are rarely single and we regularly see previous clients coming along to see us again - often with their friends who 'might want to book us' as well.

We also have a group of hardcore 'fans' who always come and see us when we play in pubs because there's not a lot of opportunity to see us throughout the rest of the year.
As there's always a couple of months gap, we've always got some new material to surprise them with as well.

From a financial perspective, the pub has always taken significantly more than they normally take on a Saturday and we've often come away with more money than we'd agreed to.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1397067592' post='2420366']
You are right that there is an element of having paid dues. You can see that I think that there is a problem that some people here think that it doesn’t matter if they know what a simple scale is, yet are prepared to subject innocent punters performing at what can only be described as a gig! This does nothing to encourage said punters to regularly support local gigs in pubs.
[/quote]

Are you seriously equating knowledge of music theory to playing competence?

Well I guess that would make it easy for venues to find 'quality' bands - just insist on seeing their grade certificates before booking them, along with their PAT certificates, liability insurance certificates, passports . . . .

[peteb]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1397079515' post='2420546']


Are you seriously equating knowledge of music theory to playing competence?

Well I guess that would make it easy for venues to find 'quality' bands - just insist on seeing their grade certificates before booking them, along with their PAT certificates, liability insurance certificates, passports . . . .
[/quote]
No, you are completely misunderstanding me.

I am not the slightest bit interested in the various credentials that you quote above and you certainly do not need to have passed graded musical exams to be a competent rock / pop musician (quite the opposite in some cases)!

However, there are limits and if you don’t know what a scale is the chances are you are pretty cr*p…