Rig+PA=Mush

[Roland Rock]

You set your rig up on stage, turn up the volume and play a few lines - it sounds great.

Then you plug into the PA and do a soundcheck - it sounds OK.

Then you start the gig, and you can barely distinguish the notes, like everything above 200Hz has been erased. You play the gig mostly by memory, unable to tell an E♭ from an E

Anyone else get this? It only happens sometimes, and I'm guessing it's to do with the waves from the rig and PA hitting eachother at exactly the wrong time. What can be done? Up the mids? Move the rig?

[essexbasscat]

What other instruments are playing in that frequency range above 200hz where you lose your sound ? guitars doing barre chords ? keyboards ?

is there overload around those frequencies ?

[Roland Rock]

It has happened with different bands. One had keys, rock guitar, sax, drums and vox. My current band has a very simple bass, drums and clean reggae guitar + vox

[ironside1966]

Empty venue = lots of nice reflective walls for the sound to bounce around so a lot of what you are hearing comes from the reflections.
Full venue = lots of people to absorb the sound so many of the reflections are gone. Low frequencies are direction less
Our ears fine it difficult to detect the pitch of a note at low frequencies and the sound can quickly becomes a mess down there. That is why most sound engineers use high pass filters on most of the instruments apart from kick drum and bass guitar.
My guess is that you are compensating by adding more bass but it’s the mid’s that you need.

[No lust in Jazz]

Yes I recognise this.

There are a package of issues going on when playing live, such as Ironside1966 points out, also when playing live people put more into their instrument, drummers get busier, keyboard players and guitarists occupy all conceivable free space then the vocal monitors are turned up and your onstage bass sound has little chance. Make sure that you're going pre eq into the desk and boost the mids until you can hear yourself and have a word with the soundman to see if he can offer you a monitor.

[0175westwood29]

[quote name='ironside1966' timestamp='1395261005' post='2400467']
Empty venue = lots of nice reflective walls for the sound to bounce around so a lot of what you are hearing comes from the reflections.
Full venue = lots of people to absorb the sound so many of the reflections are gone. Low frequencies are direction less
Our ears fine it difficult to detect the pitch of a note at low frequencies and the sound can quickly becomes a mess down there. That is why most sound engineers use high pass filters on most of the instruments apart from kick drum and bass guitar.
My guess is that you are compensating by adding more bass but it’s the mid’s that you need.
[/quote]

had this happen lots of times, just needed to bump the mids and everything gets much clearer for me, however this is where i like my rack eq can just boost what i want.

andy

[Ghost_Bass]

less bass and more mids should solve this. when a bass sounds great soloed often won't sound properly with a band and vice versa. you need to tailor your amp's sound in order to suit you in the mix during the gig. let the soundman find that great tone for the FOH (you an help him with sugestions). for me it's all about the mids, i don't scoop them so i can hear all the notes during gig and i also don't go trouser-flapping on the bass control so i don't end up drowning myself and loosing definition.

other times, like sugested, the problem lies with guitarrists or kick drums.

[JPJ]

Yes, learn to EQ your rig differently when you have FOH support. Also, check that the FOH isn't just pushing the bass into the bins 'because thats what they're for isn't it?' (I have had a 'FOH engineer' say that once). With FOH support, I roll off the bass and low mids and scoop less out of the mids/high mid to give me more 'projection' on stage. Don't forget to feed the FOH a pre eq signal or use a D.I. box between bass and amp.

[la bam]

Ive had it where ive been gigging almost next to the subs and the notes i was playing didnt sound like the notes coming out of the subs - even though i was sure they were?!!

[krysh]

[quote name='No lust in Jazz' timestamp='1395261816' post='2400485']
Yes I recognise this.

There are a package of issues going on when playing live, such as Ironside1966 points out, also when playing live people put more into their instrument, drummers get busier, keyboard players and guitarists occupy all conceivable free space then the vocal monitors are turned up and your onstage bass sound has little chance. Make sure that you're going pre eq into the desk and boost the mids until you can hear yourself and have a word with the soundman to see if he can offer you a monitor.
[/quote]

THIS.

[Roland Rock]

All good stuff, thanks. I'll make sure that my DI is set to pre eq and then boost mids as necessary.

What I should have made clear is that this is a monitoring issue only, not a problem for front of house. In this band more than any other, there is no competition for my frequencies. It's not a 'what sounds great solo can get lost in the band mix' issue.

I was expecting a lot more "out of phase" themed answers to explain the phenomenon, but maybe I'm way off here?

Edited March 20, 2014 by Roland Rock

[Roland Rock]

[quote name='la bam' timestamp='1395275610' post='2400668']
Ive had it where ive been gigging almost next to the subs and the notes i was playing didnt sound like the notes coming out of the subs - even though i was sure they were?!!
[/quote]

Yeah, this is it! One of the times it happened to me, we were gigging with a dub sound system in a small venue. I was playing through their 14kw Void Soundsystem, with stage monitors and a 6x10 on stage, yet could hardly hear a note. For the audience, however, it was epic.

[badboy1984]

Mids in my friend in gig situation. Only time when I have problem is the keyboard player. To me keyboard player is worser then guitar player. I have tons of problem with keyboard players usually.

[No lust in Jazz]

I think as a working Bass Player this area is one where 10 or 12" speakers are handy for mid range punch, remember what you're hearing isn't what the audience hear, but if there are monitors available I'd use them rather than a speaker cab this way you can hear a little of whatever you like.

Again noting from real world examples Geddy Lee hasn't used onstage cabs for a number of tours.

The only other thing that I'd add is, if possible use a good PA company; we try to use the same people gig after gig. A soundman plus rig to take care of the FOH sound is worth it and is often what gets you repeat gigs and recommendations.

[JTUK]

I would ask what the backline soundcheck is like...
as this is where the problems will/should show up first.

If your backline mix is poor, then you are amplifying up, with FOH switched in,
from a poor position to start with..and there will be very little way back from that.

Most bands decide to be quiet on stage so giving the stage mix a chance, but then
that doesn't help the on stage vibe re playing. We basically start with a stage mix
determined by the acoustic volume of the kit...and then bring everything up to a nice level.
We always hear everyone at this stage...and if we can't, we bring that level of the instrument up
to suit. We then use the FOH to just fill in the sound on stage, and on course monitoring
for hearing other instruments.

At no point, will you want a mush, but the two culprits tend to be low keys and bass...as the bass
player insists on having a too loud bass heavy rig...
Subs are notorious for undistinguished bass sounds, so adding that to a bass heavy sound
doesn't help. This is why bands use fridges for their low end thump but they aren't what I would
call a bassey cab.

I see/hear most problems when bass players use thumpy bass sounds from the bass itself and their backline
and they get into a difficult room...and you just have too much bass flying around.
The P.A FOH will largely obscure this out front...or just add weight if the FOH engr knows what he is doing
but the stage sound is invaribly up to the bass player to sort if you don't have a mon engr.

It helps to be as clean as poss at the monitoring stage...clean technique, clean sounds and clean band mix
where you have done all the work in EQ'ing all the instruments in rehearsal...
Gtrs and keys have to wipe off bottom end from their sound as much as a drummer would from his kit..
It is all a version of tuning... IMO.

[Truckstop]

Unless you're playing to hundreds and hundreds of people you don't even need subs. Good quality tops will handle everything very well without introducing loads of unwanted ultra-bass frequencies into the mix.

But yeah, roll the bass down and bump the mids a bit on your amp. Will sound a bit natty to your ears but you'll be able to hear yourself on stage. Use a pre-EQ DI and you can put as much bass into the FOH mix as you like.

Truckstop

[Phil Starr]

I can't tell an Eb form an E at the best of times

All of the above really. the room acoustics and echos/reflections are phase issues. My favourite set up is with the bass bins providing all the deep stuff to the audience (enough comes back to me anyway as they are effectively omnidirectional at these frequencies) and a little Hartke kickback providing my monitoring, with the bass rolled right off on stage. the trouble is the rest of the band, particularly the drummer, prefer a lot of bass on stage for the excitement value. I've given in and gone back to a traditional stack but end up with a real sonic mush in some venues, low ceilings seem to be the biggest culprits.

Looks like we've all been there.

[Lozz196]

Is this using your own PA, or at venues with FOH already there. If your own, you should easily be able to sort it. If at venues, well the sound you`re talking about seems to be the sound I hear most when seeing bands. It almost seems like it`s the "new" bass sound - yet when you hear the guys soundcheck their rigs without FOH they seem fine.