randythoades Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 (edited) As a guitarist too I have been guilty of that in the past! Only one thing really helped though: Having everyone go into into the PA for overall levels and using decent monitoring. Also makes it much easier to sing and hear yourself in key so no need to push it loud, and easier to control the overall volume to punters. With everone playing quieter, you can actually hear individuals much better so to me less volume is often more clarity. We had one particular guitarist who refused to turn down and this method worked a treat, in fact we miked up his cab but somehow forgot to plug him into the PA after all. Only the chaps at the front got any benefit from his, and the word from the back of the room was that we sounded better than ever!! Whoops... Why don't you take charge of the sound engineer and PA bit and sell it to the other guys like that...? And keep praising them about how nice they are playing... Edited December 17, 2013 by randythoades Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6v6 Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 [quote name='artisan' timestamp='1387286446' post='2310213'] the rhythm guy uses an AER which is damn loud for such a small amp. My brother used a Fender blues deluxe which also makes a right row,he plays a Gretsch too so it can be very cutting. [/quote] If they both switched to something like a Fender Princeton reverb (12-15 watts), or Blues Junior, or any of the numerous small (two 6v6 or EL84 power stage) amps out there, not only will they sound much better, the stage volume will be much more sensible. Probably even a 5w amp like a champ or Marshall class 5 would be sufficient in many venues. Those Fender Blues/HotRod Deluxes and Devilles are really loud, and for some reason they fitted a lot of them with the wrong taper on the master volume, making it very difficult to get any control between nothing and really-way-too-loud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blinddrew Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Hmmm, guitarists are ten-a-penny, bass-players (especially upright bass) are gold-dust. You've been reasonable, you've given them time, if they don't react to your ultimatum I'm willing to bet you'll be playing decent gigs again before they will... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paddy109 Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 I had similar problem in my last band. The last gig I played the two guitarists kept sneaking their amps up competing against each other, in the end it sounded a right old mess. I left following that gig and now play in a more chilled band! Cut and paste all these replies and send them an e-mail, if they Dont get it then move on. Playing should be mostly fun after all. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 I'd hate to have a band rehearsal with these guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artisan Posted December 17, 2013 Author Share Posted December 17, 2013 [quote name='RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE' timestamp='1387315175' post='2310696'] I'd hate to have a band rehearsal with these guys. [/quote] me too Actually we rehearse in the singers house at at what they think is low volume but i still need an amp,i tried just playing accoustic but couldn't hear myself. They are hopeless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirky Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 (edited) My guitarist has started using a Blues Jr in place of his Twin and has never sound better. Lots of good ideas here - I particularly like the acoustic rehearsal one. Hope it works out Neil. If all else fails, I play a little rockabilly guitar... Edited December 18, 2013 by Kirky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grangur Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 (edited) Just a thought; how about you and your brother leave together and start a new band? (Sack the rhythm player) Other than that, how about if both you and your brother both turn your volume down at a rehearsal, would the other guitarist notice if it's so blatant that all he can hear is himself? Edited December 18, 2013 by Grangur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc S Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 [quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1387355142' post='2310925'] Other than that, how about if both you and your brother both turn your volume down at a rehearsal, would the other guitarist notice if it's so blatant that all he can hear is himself? [/quote] Not a bad suggestion - if you can convince your brother to go along with it of course Don't forget to let us know what you decide to do We're all interested now! Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badboy1984 Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 Guitarist is always the hard one to deal with. I've play with many guitarist before and even some of my good mates and they all the same when the guitar is strapped and plug into a valve amp. They are bloody loud that my 500w + amp can't even coped in a small rehearsal room. Apart from the volume thing most guitarist have, they also like to boost tons of bass on their EQ which also drowns my bass tone as well, which forces me to have crappy, clanky and distorted tone in order to hear myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle psychosis Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 [quote name='6v6' timestamp='1387285837' post='2310204'] naturally big tube amps only sound good when they're driven hard, which results in totally stupid stage volumes. [/quote] Thats just not true at all. Some people really like the sound you get from running big amps at low volumes. Its very different to the sound you get from running a low powered amp at the same volume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artisan Posted December 18, 2013 Author Share Posted December 18, 2013 Thanks guys. I'm not sure turning myself right down would work,the rhythm player spent 20 odd years just playing with himself in his bedroom & seems incapable of adjusting to a band setting,all he seems to here is himself. We have a gig this saturday so i will see how it goes on the night,at least they know how i feel now so it will be interesting to see how it goes. Its a funny band though my brother & the singer are thick as thieves where i actually feel like an outsider sometimes. The will change the running order mid set but neglect to tell me what we are playing next,odd really but a shame as the band can be good. Kirky - i'll bear that in mind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blinddrew Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 [quote name='artisan' timestamp='1387368363' post='2311103']the rhythm player spent 20 odd years just playing with himself in his bedroom & seems incapable of adjusting to a band setting,[/quote] Funny how some, otherwise very talented, people just seem to really struggle to shift to a setting where they're playing with other people. Had something very similar at monday's session, a guitarist there (very competent player) was jamming along but really loud and trying to put in some really complex counter rhythms to a song that just didn't need it - I don't know what he was hearing but a few of us were wincing and really struggling to keep the rhythm going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huge Hands Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 (edited) [quote name='artisan' timestamp='1387368363' post='2311103'] Its a funny band though my brother & the singer are thick as thieves where i actually feel like an outsider sometimes. [/quote] I played drums in a band during my teens with my brother (keyboards) who is six years older than me. He always treated me as the "kid brother" as the rest of the band were his age, which meant not updating me of changes and then shouting at me mid gig when I obviously got that wrong, and treating me like c**p the rest of the time when the other band members were around. I don't think he wanted his annoying little brother in his band, but he didn't know any other drummers! I moved away at 18 and have not really played more than the odd gig with him since, but I would imagine it would still be the same now even though I'm approaching 40.... I reckon you might be suffering from a similar thing? Just a thought? P.S. I wasn't intending to slag off our kid by the way. For all I've said, I love the sod to bits and actually think the treatment toughened me up a bit and kept me on my game at the time as I can be a lazy b*****d at times. When we locked in together it could be great! I wouldn't recommend his approach for everyone though.... I guess in summary what I was trying to say was, you probably need to make the decsion as to whether you stay to keep up the relationship with your brother, or branch out on your own and join a band that makes you happy. Tough call sometimes.... Edited December 18, 2013 by Huge Hands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artisan Posted December 18, 2013 Author Share Posted December 18, 2013 [quote name='Huge Hands' timestamp='1387369567' post='2311122'] I played drums in a band during my teens with my brother (keyboards) who is six years older than me. He always treated me as the "kid brother" as the rest of the band were his age, which meant not updating me of changes and then shouting at me mid gig when I obviously got that wrong, and treating me like c**p the rest of the time when the other band members were around. I don't think he wanted his annoying little brother in his band, but he didn't know any other drummers! I moved away at 18 and have not really played more than the odd gig with him since, but I would imagine it would still be the same now even though I'm approaching 40.... I reckon you might be suffering from a similar thing? Just a thought? P.S. I wasn't intending to slag off our kid by the way. For all I've said, I love the sod to bits and actually think the treatment toughened me up a bit and kept me on my game at the time as I can be a lazy b*****d at times. When we locked in together it could be great! I wouldn't recommend his approach for everyone though.... I guess in summary what I was trying to say was, you probably need to make the decsion as to whether you stay to keep up the relationship with your brother, or branch out on your own and join a band that makes you happy. Tough call sometimes.... [/quote] this i think is spot on & absolutley true in my case too,my brother is 5 years older than me & even though i am 46 i still get this exact treatment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRev Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 [quote name='artisan' timestamp='1387368363' post='2311103'] The will change the running order mid set but neglect to tell me what we are playing next,odd really but a shame as the band can be good. [/quote] Aw man, this is all sounding far too familiar. Do they also change the key at the last minute and not bother to tell you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamdenRob Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 I keep reading this thread as 'thinking of gutting my band' on the forum index.... sounds a bit extreme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badboy1984 Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 I personally just quit the band and join/form a different band where everyone is very professional and willing to take advice. No communication in the band itself is the worse thing ever and the audience can probably see the unprofessional sign onstage as well ...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc S Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 [quote name='artisan' timestamp='1387368363' post='2311103'] Thanks guys..... Its a funny band though my brother & the singer are thick as thieves where i actually feel like an outsider sometimes. The will change the running order mid set but neglect to tell me what we are playing next,odd really but a shame as the band can be good. [/quote] I must admit, the more I hear about your band, the worse the whole thing sounds, to me anyway As you've said - they know how you feel and it's last chance for them Enjoy your gig, and you'll know how you feel after that..... It may be that because your brother is in the band they don't realise just how hard it can be to find a good double bass player and one who wants to play the same stuff at that.... Perhaps it'll take you to leave, to realise what they're missing? You never know - they may come back in a month with their tails between their legs, and their amps turned down..... Hope this doesn't affect your relationship with your brother though Anyhow, good luck & again, let us know what you decide Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowieBass Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 Turn up with your P bass and a distortion pedal next rehearsal or gig and tell them you thought this was the direction they wanted to go in based on their playing style... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 I had exactly the same thing. I was in a band that I thought we could do really well as we were a bit bit different and spent 2 years soldiering on with volume problems and a host of other fairly small unprofessional things that we're very easy to fix. I'm certainly not shy at venting my spleen and everyone knew what I was on about and all agreed. But getting it into action was another thing. In the end I said enough was enough and jacked at the end of this October saying I'd play till the end of the year. I was serious and had already started to look around but the band said they would sort stuff out if I stayed. It was quite a painful process with a founding member and good mate getting sacked but it's pretty much coming together now. You are not going to sort this out by talking, you need to leave and get another band. And be serious about it, they will or they won't sort it out and keep the band together. You have to be prepared to move on as I was. good luck Les Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubassman Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 (edited) Dial cranked to 11 is pretty one dimensional to any listener - and nothing like the sophistication you would get on an album if the band where to go into a studio and work with a producer and a sound engineer, trimming gain to avoid clipping, using low and high pass filters, ADT, etc . Ironically if each musician's track were all recorded separately for a recording contract demo and property mixed together they would love the fact that everything is clear and that the bass sounds amazing complimenting the guitars, the vocals sound great, and that the band never played so well etc etc. But then back to gigging and live performance, and that sound would fall apart . What I dont get is why with some musicians there isnt a curiosity to experiment more with making the best live mix sound that the band can make? So, another thing you could try is to deliberately suggest whilst playing live to record a 'live demo' that captures the essence of the band's sound . At the end of the day the trick is for any live performance to be as good as an album and it would result in hopefully a good discussion between everyone as to how they could best go about that. Its very difficult to ask other people to change their habits and perceptions but I guess thats where you are at if the band is to ever property showcase its talents. Edited December 18, 2013 by ubassman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubassman Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 You could get Yoko to record different takes with different mixes and ask her what sounds the clearest from au audience point of view ....she could be your biggest ally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarah thomas Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 Les has a good point. Talking is fine but if no-one takes any action, nothing is achieved. You have to be prepared to walk. I bet they think you'll just keep moaning on and never leave because you don't want to upset your brother. Your brother may well respect you more if you show him that you mean what you say. Leave! There's no need to fall out. Just leave, pleasantly and kindly, smile and agree with them all, but still just leave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alistair Sutcliffe Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 My 3 piece rnr pub band plays without instrument amps. I can't think of any good reason to use them these days. Multifx units are so good now that they're just not necessary for an average sized pub. Why lug amps AND a pa? It's unnecessary lugging and setting up, they add to feedback issues, they disperse unequally and volume wars are the consequence. I can see why boutique amps are wanted at bigger or more prestigious gigs with a sound engineer but not for a pub. Not using amps is a system most guitarists won't go for on principle but if they were open minded enough to try it it might solve the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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