Are high end basses for investors or musicians?

[LukeFRC]

ah that's the high end bass - investment thread again, very nice...



anyway on another topic, saw a guy walking down the street yesterday carrying a double bass, turned to the wife and said "that looks fun, can I get one" - so how much is a good double bass cost?

[oggiesnr]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1377586048' post='2188948']
ah that's the high end bass - investment thread again, very nice...



anyway on another topic, saw a guy walking down the street yesterday carrying a double bass, turned to the wife and said "that looks fun, can I get one" - so how much is a good double bass cost?
[/quote]

My favourite double bass shop seems to work on the principle that "If sir has to ask the price then sir can not afford it".

It's actually a great shop with great staff but their idea of a budget instrument starts at £5,500, better quality runs up to £25,000 and for top quality you negotiate! The same is true of their bows, over £ 7,000 you ask the price.

Puts electric basses in perspective doesn't it?

Steve

[steve-bbb]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1377525660' post='2188451']
To my ears Foderas sound very similar to jazz basses!
[/quote]
[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1377529444' post='2188503']
But not quite as good.
[/quote]

+1

didnt that recent thread with the vid clip comparing loads of different J's and J types have a (dull sounding) fodera in it?

for people who want to buy as an investment i would suggest that they are loaded and are just happy to spend money on shiny toys . at one end of th espectrum they may be used regulalrly for gigging and become extremley roadworn! at the other end of the spectrum they may just end up hanging on the wall like some hipster equivalent of a chav samurai sword

is investment a possible misnomer? how about replace investment with indulgence?

not for one minute going to criticise people for indulging just suggesting it as a possible alternative descriptor. if youve worked and earned your dosh or inherited it doesnt matter just buy it and enjoy it and indulge yourself only you can answer your own questions as to whether you feel youve earned or deserve it - if you can afford to buy like this it begs the question that you probably have enough dosh that you have your 'real investments' elsewhere

an example... Chris Evans and his ferrari collection ... is it an investment or indulgence? nobody would doubt that these cars hold and increase their value but to a man with his sort of personal wealth is this an investment or indulgence? an investor would likely put them in a garage/showroom and enjoy them as a static display and not put them anywhere near any risk of damage whatsoever. an enthusiast with a passion for them would indulge and use them as he does regularly. is he an investor or an indulger??

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='oggiesnr' timestamp='1377588581' post='2188972']


My favourite double bass shop seems to work on the principle that "If sir has to ask the price then sir can not afford it".

It's actually a great shop with great staff but their idea of a budget instrument starts at £5,500, better quality runs up to £25,000 and for top quality you negotiate! The same is true of their bows, over £ 7,000 you ask the price.

Puts electric basses in perspective doesn't it?

Steve
[/quote]
One set of strings alone would cover the cost of a decent used bass, a set of gut strings would get you into used Warwick territory! I'm really trying to avoid playing a nice double bass to see just how much nicer they are, hopefully mine is the squier of the DB world and I won't want one, as if

[4 Strings]

I used to be interested in fountain pens, and, a few years ago now, I bought a new Conway Stewart with a bit of inheritance money. It was expensive but made to be used and it was fab. Nowadays they make pens in themed series and quickly changing models and are aimed squarely at collectors. Their function is sort of important, but more so to be collected in all the available colours etc.

The americans are particularly into this sort of thing and I can imagine similar collecting ambitions would go for some makes of guitar (probably less so for basses).

Entwistle had plenty of basses that never got played, I'll bet there is at least one person growing a collection of Ritters.

I don't know the guy with the 45 basses but uses a 'utility bass' most of the time, of course, but I can imagine having ALMOST all the available finishes of a Lakland model (or whatever) would make it an easy step to acquire an example in the remaining finish just to complete the set.

(Just for the record, I lost my Conway Stewart!)

Edited August 27, 2013 by 4 Strings

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='oggiesnr' timestamp='1377588581' post='2188972']
My favourite double bass shop seems to work on the principle that "If sir has to ask the price then sir can not afford it".

It's actually a great shop with great staff but their idea of a budget instrument starts at £5,500, better quality runs up to £25,000 and for top quality you negotiate! The same is true of their bows, over £ 7,000 you ask the price.

Puts electric basses in perspective doesn't it?

Steve
[/quote] my point exactly!

Ok... so my tuppence... I'm tired of this inverted snobbery going on that comes up every few weeks- yes I get it, everyone could have bought that mythical squier* that is just as good as the multi thousand pound bass, and ooh look it's not so perfect, and woooah yeah I mean that squier could do everything it could do, what a waste of money.... etc etc etc

So yes some things are made to work as musicians tools, and at various price points. And some things are cheap cos of less quality, or cheaper workers.... and some things are expensive cos of more expensive parts, or lesser economies of scale in production, or just the maker wants to feed his family or something.... and yes somethings are probably sold on the principle "the more expensive is better" and we end up with fancy AAAAAAAAAA grade woods (whatever that actually means), pickups wound by virgins and stupid over the top inlays blah blah blah...

But what gets me a wee bit annoyed is how any discussion about high end basses seems to end up knocking those who do buy high end stuff, (normally with molan argueing the other side), we end up knocking the player..... why?
Because I don't get it - our cheap basses are cheap cos it's a mass market commodity- the more that are made the cheaper they potentially can be, and with more competition we get better quality..... right so you have your starter bass.... what do you want to do? upgrade- maybe to a mid range ibanez or a mexican fender... and probably you look second hand and pick one up there for less....
the person selling that is either....
got enough money to have more than one bass - upgrading - or selling up and taking up carp fishing...
apart from the last option you are benifiting directly from someone buying something else and probably further up the bass food chain, it's a small market place... and everyone benifits on someone with a lot of money deciding to spend more on something that previously they were mocking people for wanting.


*the mythical squier does exist btw, and tends to say squier series and a JV serial.... not that i'm biased!

[molan]

I am now planning to have all my basses upgraded to feature "pickups wound by virgins"

[krysh]

I'd prefer pickups wound by milfs then.

[jazzyvee]

Maybe pickups wound by cougars would be a good alternative... but then they may be considered road worn and that's a whole other debate ...... :-)

Edited August 28, 2013 by jazzyvee

[stingrayPete1977]

Cougar pickups actually sounds quite good doesn't it?

[Cairobill]

It's pretty clear that anyone who buys a brand new boutique bass as an investment is deluded. They literally shed a third to a half of their value when they leave the shop. Vintage instruments are different of course.

However, there is a clear group of dudes who churn through high end basses because they can and they don't give a stuff about the investment side of things. You can see it more clearly on Talkbass where obsession over particular holy grail basses waxes and wanes with time. Intensity of chatter about brands (or should I say Marques ) like Celinder, Wal, Ritter rises and falls. Characteristic of this sort of thing is an obsession with detail like the figuring in laminate tops, pickups, preamp tweaking etc etc

This group of players/collectors includes people who are extremely good and some who can barely play a note. I think people take the piss out of the latter and some of that piss taking is envy-based. (Of course some of it is because people find three quarter length shorts, beer bellies, high fiving and bad slapping amusing )

But to state that AC, F basses, Ritter, Fodera etc etc are just collected by venture capitalists and accountants who can't play a note is a generalisation IMO

[Toasted]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1377440422' post='2187514']
Guitars are not good investments. Even if you have a 1969 Precision, which would be worth about $4000, you have to realize that when it was purchased it cost $400, which in todays market is about $2000. So it would take over 40 years to make about 500 pounds. Hardly a fiscal coup.
[/quote]

The most sensible post in this thread.

[Cairobill]

[quote name='Toasted' timestamp='1377677559' post='2190114']
The most sensible post in this thread.
[/quote]

seconded

[Fat Rich]

You could maybe say vintage basses for investors, high end basses for enthusiasts, mid price basses for pro musicians.... but it would still be a huge generalisation.

[discreet]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1377641864' post='2189907']
I am now planning to have all my basses upgraded to feature "pickups wound by virgins"
[/quote]

That's if you can find any in South Oxfordshire.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1377641864' post='2189907']
I am now planning to have all my basses upgraded to feature "pickups wound by virgins"
[/quote]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1377680207' post='2190148']
That's if you can find any in South Oxfordshire.
[/quote]

How so..? Plenty of basses in Oxfordshire, surely..?

[molan]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1377680207' post='2190148']
That's if you can find any in South Oxfordshire.
[/quote]

All the girls in Henley are virgins, dahling

[discreet]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1377682271' post='2190187']
All the girls in Henley are virgins, dahling
[/quote]

Must be something to do with the Henley Reach.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1377641864' post='2189907']
I am now planning to have all my basses upgraded to feature "pickups wound by virgins"
[/quote] I read a story on the other side where some boutique pickup winder had some pickups lying in the corner of his workshop and some dude emailed him wanting him. Anyway the fella convinced the winder to sell them to him cheap... but when he got them it turned out the winders mum had made them and.... well no one was convinced she qualified as a virgin...... and yeah - it all kicked off on the other side....

[molan]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1377804780' post='2192202']
I read a story on the other side where some boutique pickup winder had some pickups lying in the corner of his workshop and some dude emailed him wanting him. Anyway the fella convinced the winder to sell them to him cheap... but when he got them it turned out the winders mum had made them and.... well no one was convinced she qualified as a virgin...... and yeah - it all kicked off on the other side....
[/quote]

40 pages worth already I've heard

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1377813837' post='2192410']
40 pages worth already I've heard
[/quote] I got to page 6 and they were debating the virgin birth and so on. Half of them were saying the pickup maker was the messiah, and the other half were saying he was a very naughty boy.

[tauzero]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1377462614' post='2187883']
I have to say that I am genuinely amazed. I've worked off and on in a high end bass guitar retailer for close to 3 years and not a single customer has bought a new bass from us an investment. In fact one of the most common comments we get is that they know sir instruments will drop in value the moment they walk out the door.
[/quote]

What about limited edition runs? For example Status's 14 30th anniversary Series 2s: [url="http://www.status-graphite.com/status/frames/index_home.html"]http://www.status-graphite.com/status/frames/index_home.html[/url]

I certainly wouldn't say that none of them will be bought to play down the Whippet and Firkin with, but might they be aimed as much at the collector as the player?

As has been pointed out upthread, there's a bit of a difference between a high-end bass from someone like Fodera or Ritter who aren't turning out vast numbers of basses and a limited edition bass from a mass producer. In fact, if you look at Fender's blurb on [url="http://www.fender.com/custom-shop/series/limited-edition/"]http://www.fender.com/custom-shop/series/limited-edition/[/url] about Custom Shop limited editions, it says

"Each Custom Shop Limited Edition instrument is only available for a short time, which makes it eminently collectible and adds to its investment value. Crafted with many features reserved only for certain artists and master built instruments, they are just what the name says they are: highly anticipated limited-edition models that go very quickly."

which rather points to Fender aiming them at investors and not players.

[molan]

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1377866479' post='2192968']


What about limited edition runs? For example Status's 14 30th anniversary Series 2s: [url="http://www.status-graphite.com/status/frames/index_home.html"]http://www.status-graphite.com/status/frames/index_home.html[/url]

I certainly wouldn't say that none of them will be bought to play down the Whippet and Firkin with, but might they be aimed as much at the collector as the player?

As has been pointed out upthread, there's a bit of a difference between a high-end bass from someone like Fodera or Ritter who aren't turning out vast numbers of basses and a limited edition bass from a mass producer. In fact, if you look at Fender's blurb on [url="http://www.fender.com/custom-shop/series/limited-edition/"]http://www.fender.com/custom-shop/series/limited-edition/[/url] about Custom Shop limited editions, it says

"Each Custom Shop Limited Edition instrument is only available for a short time, which makes it eminently collectible and adds to its investment value. Crafted with many features reserved only for certain artists and master built instruments, they are just what the name says they are: highly anticipated limited-edition models that go very quickly."

which rather points to Fender aiming them at investors and not players.
[/quote]

It's just cheap marketing hype I'm afraid. Lots of manufacturers produce limited editions and try to claim that they will rise in value. This is merely another way of trying to move them quickly.

Fender, and especially MusicMan, do this all the time. It definitely increases short term desirability and may command a higher price on the used market in the future but it's incredibly rare for one to rise to a level above the original new price - which is what it would have to do to be an investment.

I'm no expert on Status values but I think the 30th Anniversary Kingbass was about £4,300 new and I've seen one for sale at £3,500 so it's lost 20% already.

The Fender 50th Anniversary Jazz basses started out at about £1,900 and even retailers dropped them to £1,500 (maybe less) at one point and they've been available on the used market at between £850 for a well used one up to about £1,300 for a good one.

As someone else pointed out it's possible that all of these will rise above their new prices eventually but it'll take a good few years for that to happen and there's a lot of basic financial investments that will generate a far greater return on the original investment (and greater liquidity).

[tauzero]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1377641864' post='2189907']
I am now planning to have all my basses upgraded to feature "pickups wound by virgins"
[/quote]

I'm not sure that having all your pickups wound by spotty youths with unhealthy Playstation/Xbox fixations would be a significant upgrade.

[tauzero]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1377868123' post='2193001']
It's just cheap marketing hype I'm afraid. Lots of manufacturers produce limited editions and try to claim that they will rise in value. This is merely another way of trying to move them quickly.

Fender, and especially MusicMan, do this all the time. It definitely increases short term desirability and may command a higher price on the used market in the future but it's incredibly rare for one to rise to a level above the original new price - which is what it would have to do to be an investment.
[/quote]

I think you're missing the point. Buying something as an investment doesn't mean that it [b]will[/b] rise in price, just that somebody has convinced the buyer that it will. If I'd bought Santander shares in 2010 for the price of a Fodera, I could now sell them and get myself a brace of matching Squiers.

In the case of basses, by the time you've worked out that a particular one would be a good investment because the price would rise enormously, the price has risen enormously. However, those particular ones would also probably have been ones that you'd have avoided as a player when they were cheap because they were crap (75% of 70s Fenders, all Hofner violin basses).