How do you assess your level?

[thebrig]

I was just wondering how you assess your ability level.

For example, when advertising online for musicians etc, they often ask what your level is, and most people usually put either, [i][b]Beginner[/b][/i], [i][b]Good[/b][/i], [i][b]Intermediate[/b][/i], [i][b]Excellent[/b][/i] or [i][b]Pro[/b][/i].

So what level would you say I am?

I have been playing for around seven years now, have around five years gigging experience with Function, Rock and R&B bands.

I've never had lessons, can't read music, don't know any theory etc.. but I can listen to most songs and learn to play them in very little time at all, almost "note for note" on a lot of them, or add my own little twist to them.

I think my timing and feel for the music is pretty good, and no one has ever said that I am the weak link in the band.

What is the difference between [i][b]Intermediate[/b][/i] and [i][b]Good[/b][/i], and would I fall into one of these categories?

Or should I really be classed as a [i][b]Beginner[/b][/i], because I don't know any theory, don't read, and have never had lessons?

Just curious!

[Dad3353]

Positive side..?

Has gigging experience
Picks up new songs quite quickly
Has an 'ear'...

Negative side..?

No reading (what..? Not even slowly..?)
No theory

I wold go for 'intermediate, could do better'. Why would one not at least start reading, and at least elementary theory..? A decent minimum knowledge of how modern music 'works' is not only a 'must', but opens so many doors and opportunities, as well as being fascinating. What's not to like..? It would put you on the road from 'good' to 'pretty damned good', if you worked on it a bit.
Just my tuppence-worth...

[peteb]

I would suggest that you can judge your level by the quality of the musicians who want to play with you!

If you have been gigging for 5 years and the bands you play with are pretty capable and if you have a good enough ear to nail all the parts that you need to, then you must be pretty 'good'. Of course the term 'good' covers a huge range of abilities, but the important thing is that you are capable enough to hold a gig down in a decent band.

Of course, if you can't read you won't get a gig in an orchestra pit or a cruise ship (or any other reading gig) and you really should have a working knowledge of basic music theory, but might find that you already do know more than you think but don't realise it...

[Conan]

Why do we always feel the need to pigeonhole and classify everything we do?

When I joined this forum I thought I was a pretty decent player. Since then, I have seen and heard people (who are ordinary members on here) whose playing is WAY beyond my ability. Or so I thought. Then I go away and try to play what they just played and, after a few hours of noodling and trying different things, I can usually make a pretty passable attempt at it (apart from double-thumbing ).

I think I am at the same level as the OP. No reading ability and only a very basic level of theoretical knowledge. I would like more, but with a full-time job and a family it is not top of my priorities list!

I have played in a number of bands in hugely varied genres over the last 30 years, and have never been the weakest musician in any of them. I am respected not only as a player, but as a reliable contributor to every band I have been in. That's not me being smug - it is just the facts.

I have a huge amount to learn, and look forward to the journey (if I can be arsed to make it!).

I would put myself at the top of the "Intermediate" category, and and possibly just getting into "Good" on my day.

But it all depends on with whom you are comparing yourself, doesn't it?

[thebrig]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1376035823' post='2168751']
Positive side..?

Has gigging experience
Picks up new songs quite quickly
Has an 'ear'...

Negative side..?

No reading (what..? Not even slowly..?)
No theory

I wold go for 'intermediate, could do better'. Why would one not at least start reading, and at least elementary theory..? A decent minimum knowledge of how modern music 'works' is not only a 'must', but opens so many doors and opportunities, as well as being fascinating. What's not to like..? It would put you on the road from 'good' to 'pretty damned good', if you worked on it a bit.
Just my tuppence-worth...
[/quote]
It's probably because I started playing at the age of 54, I'm now 61, and I never really thought that I would ever get to the stage where I can play pretty good bass lines, and be good enough to play with excellent musicians in gigging bands, but if I could turn the clock back, I would definitely learn as much as I can about music.

[BigRedX]

I think too many people unnecessarily worry about their playing and musical ability.

I think it boils down to this:

Do you have the technical ability to be able to play the music that you need to be able to play now? If not you definitely need to practice some more.

Do you have the technical ability to be able to play all the music that you want to be able to play? If not you probably should practice some more, but if you don't actually need it right now then it's entirely up to you.

As for theory and being able to read music. Has not being able to read music ever held you back? Have you been put in a situation where you need to be able to read? And by read do you mean sight-read or just the ability to decipher the dots in your own time? Reading is a great skill, but if none of the other musicians you work with or want to work with communicate their musical ideas in the form of notation then maybe spending your time learning something else might be more productive.

And again theory is a useful skill, but only if you know most of it. Knowing a little might actually hold you back because so much pop and rock has been created by people who don't really know any theory and simply went by what sounded good to them and actually goes against most of the basic rules. Given the right instrumentation and style of music and you can make pretty much any musical intervals work. In the end whether or not it sounds good is entirely subjective.

Finally what does "Pro" mean? In its strictest sense of making a living there are plenty of musicians making a living out of it who probably don't even rate good in terms of technical ability or musical skill. I've mostly been the least technically accomplished in all the bands I've played with, but it hasn't really held me back, because if there is something I find I can't play during rehearsal then I'll make sure that I can play it by the next one. Also in nearly all the originals bands I've played with, I have been responsible for at least 50% of the musical output of the band.

[W11ATO]

Great thread and very subjective.

Do you mean what defines a bass player in particular or a musician in general?

Is it a case of what can you play or is it what do you know?

And what does "pro" mean?

Is that a level of ability as the others perhaps are or does it just mean does it for a living 'cause as we know there are many many sh1t bass players earning fortunes....

I'd say if you can play Hit Me With Your Rhythm Stick or YYZ you're good ;-)

[TimR]

You're not intermediate until you know the names and positions of all the notes on the fretboard and the difference between a major and a minor chord.

So as you know no theory you are a beginner.

[Conan]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1376037908' post='2168789']
You're not intermediate until you know the names and positions of all the notes on the fretboard and the difference between a major and a minor chord.[/quote]

That seems rather arbitrary! Are you quoting from some published set of standards there, or simply making your own judgement? Not that I'm saying it is wrong, just interested from whence it comes...

[BigRedX]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1376037908' post='2168789']
You're not intermediate until you know the names and positions of all the notes on the fretboard and the difference between a major and a minor chord.

So as you know no theory you are a beginner.
[/quote]

I know enough theory to know that I really don't like the sound of either the major or minor 3rd interval in a chord and will go out of my way to avoid it. I find that replacing it with a 9th or a 4th sounds much better. Can theory tell me why this is the case? In the end it's all subjective isn't it?

[steve-bbb]

imho pro is not an ability level it is an indicator of whether you do it to make a significant amount of personal income (which as we all know is no indicator whatsofrigginever of ability)

arbitrarily, i would class myself as most excellent

Edited August 9, 2013 by steve-bbb

[flyfisher]

I'd also agree that 'professional' is not a measure of ability. There are plenty of professional people in all walks of life earning a living from what they do, even though they have wildly different abilities. There are plenty of cowboy builders that earn a good living from their profession.

The problem is that words such as 'good' etc are very subjective and wide-ranging. I'm 'good' enough to play in a couple of bands and people seem to enjoy what we play, but I wouldn't say we're a particularly 'good' band and we don't play anything particularly complicated because we're not 'good' enough to do so.

So, really, what's the point of all this classification?

I suppose the best way to quantify how 'good' we are is to take some musical exams, for which we'd be graded accordingly. But, again, what's the point for most players?

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1376037839' post='2168786']
And again theory is a useful skill, but only if you know most of it. Knowing a little might actually hold you back because so much pop and rock has been created by people who don't really know any theory and simply went by what sounded good to them and actually goes against most of the basic rules. Given the right instrumentation and style of music and you can make pretty much any musical intervals work. In the end whether or not it sounds good is entirely subjective.
[/quote]

Thinking of theory as "rules" leads to trouble IMO because its not really about "right" and "wrong" its more about seeing music as a set of recurring structures and patterns. For example if I'm playing in the key of A minor, theory tells me that c# is "out of key" which doesn't make it wrong because with a bit of imagination its probably possible to create a context where it will sound good. Theory is merely alerting me to fact that some extra care is needed with the use of that note.

I guess the idea of theory being rules dates back to a time were only one form of music (classical) existed and in that context certain things got labeled as right or wrong but they are only right or wrong for producing that particular sort of sound.

Edited August 9, 2013 by bassman7755

[TimR]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1376040991' post='2168849']


Thinking of theory as "rules" leads to trouble IMO because its not really about "right" and "wrong" its more about seeing music as a set of recurring structures and patterns. For example if I'm playing in the key of A minor, theory tells me that c# is "out of key" which doesn't make it wrong because with a bit of imagination its probably possible to create a context where it will sound good. Theory is merely alerting me to fact that some extra care is needed with the use of that note.

I guess the idea of theory being rules dates back to a time were only one form of music (classical) existed and in that context certain things got labeled as right or wrong but they are only right or wrong for producing that particular sort of sound.
[/quote]

Theory is NOT rules. Why do people insist that it is? Does English have rules? No. It's just a way of describing what you are playing.

If the guitarist tells you he is playing an Amin and you don't even know where the A is in your fretboard how can you even say you are intermediate?

If a guitarist auditioned for my band who had been playing for years and described himself as professional, I would expect him to know the names of the chords he is playing and how to play the chords when I give him the names.

It's fairly simple, why complicate something as simple as beginner, intermediate and advanced?

[JTUK]

Deep deep subject this...IMO.

You can have been playing for 20 plus years and not be so hot or you can have been playing intensively for 10 and
be doing very well.
You are going to have to position yourself in your pool of players to some degree but those same players define you somewhat.
People tend to play with others because they all know who can do the gig and they like this confidence.

In that sense it is always a good idea to play above your level if you can..and merely by doing so, you can't be doing too bad.

On another note..if you are lucky enough to play with a world class player...and this isn't always defined by a lenghty C.V...but that is another thread..
then hopefully you can pick up on what made them that player.

[chris_b]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1376042445' post='2168872']
....Theory is NOT rules. Why do people insist that it is? Does English have rules?....
[/quote]

What are you talking about?

Of course the English language has rules. It has rules for grammar, punctuation and many other things.

Would you describe Django Rheinhardt as a beginner because he didn't know theory?

[wateroftyne]

Your ability to do the job is governed by much more than your technical knowledge.

Experience, instinct, feel, your personality, personal circumstances, availability, reputation.. All arguably just as important. If not, more so.

[thunderbird13]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1376038395' post='2168803']
I know enough theory to know that I really don't like the sound of either the major or minor 3rd interval in a chord and will go out of my way to avoid it. I find that replacing it with a 9th or a 4th sounds much better. Can theory tell me why this is the case? In the end it's all subjective isn't it?
[/quote]

Would this be because the by playing the 4th and 9th you are creating tension as the 4th wants to resolve to the 5th and the 9th wants to resolve to the Octave whereas playing chord tones sounds more "safe " ???

Anyway I take your point about theory , its only useful if you find it so some people do some dont , we're all made different

[thunderbird13]

BTW I am offically certified by a well respected bass teacher as "internediate" which to me means I can play in time but can't play an interesting bass line

[Dad3353]

[quote name='thunderbird13' timestamp='1376044264' post='2168903']
BTW I am offically certified by a well respected bass teacher as "internediate" which to me means I can play in time but can't play an interesting bass line
[/quote]

You are Adam Clayton and I claim my £5..!

[thunderbird13]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1376044450' post='2168907']
You are Adam Clayton and I claim my £5..!
[/quote]

was the clue that I cant spell inter[b]m[/b]ediate !

[Bilbo]

If the audience is ignoring me but smiling, I know I have nailed it.

[jakenewmanbass]

There is only one available judgement of level as far as I'm concerned and it involves the use of ears... if it sounds good, it [i]is[/i] good. How you get to your level is a secondary consideration.
People may differ in what they like but that's entirely subjective.

[thebrig]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1376043580' post='2168889']
Your ability to do the job is governed by much more than your technical knowledge.

Experience, instinct, feel, your personality, personal circumstances, availability, reputation.. All arguably just as important. If not, more so.
[/quote]
I totally agree with this!

[thebrig]

Thanks for all the interesting thoughts on this subject.

I just want to clear something up though.

I am not really bothered about what category I fall in for myself, it’s just that as I stated in my original question, when you advertise or respond to an advert online, you often get asked to describe your ability level, and it’s usually Beginner, Good, Excellent, Advanced and Pro-Level or something similar.

I would say that I am more than a beginner, as I do know where all the notes are on the fretboard and their names, I do know the difference between major and minor chords, and being a reasonable rhythm guitarist as well, it certainly helps with this understanding.

As for Pro? I’ve always dismissed this term, rightly or wrongly, because I think it can be very misleading.
For instance, I’m not working at the moment due to ill health, and although I’ve made a good recovery, I am finding it hard to find work, so if I was to gig a few times a week, and the money earned from gigging was my only income, then that would then make me a professional musician, it wouldn’t make me a fantastic player, but I guess I could then describe myself as Pro, which would be misleading.