Volume limiter thingumies

[MrRatty]

We played our first gig at a pub with a volume limiter thingumy this evening and fortunately it is currently for "indication only" but will be active from the end of the month. It seemed incredibly sensitive and we couldn't help but push it into the red as soon as we started playing. We are a four piece rock covers band (guitar, bass, drums & vocals) and just adjust our levels to balance with the drummer (who is not amplified). I was wondering if it is normal for these limiters to be so sensitive as I can't imagine any band with a drummer keeping this particular limiter out of the red.[size=4] [/size]

[fretmeister]

Yup. They are sh*t.

Most drummers I've played with wild get it in the red without the rest of the band!

[Junkyard Rocket]

These things are pointless & idiotic - I won't play a venue with them if we are using our own backline.

The last time I encountered one was in a function room at a council-run theatre / arts centre where it triggered before any amps were plugged in, but the drummer was fiddling with his snaredrum. Without being asked, the tech there provided an extension cable plugged into a socket in the kitchen for us to plug into instead.

[Lozz196]

We played a pub where there is one of these - indication only - and although we are a punk band, we`re not particularly loud, yet it was straying into the red virtually all the time. Strangely, it was the vocs that did this, and I say strange as our singer doesn`t like the vocs loud - at many of our gigs people say they should have been louder, yet these were what set it off most.

[icastle]

These things were all the rage a few years ago but seemed to disappear.
I've not encountered one recently, but it seems they've come back into fashion again.
Horrid, crude things.

[BigAlonBass]

A friend of mine installs these (and other Musical stuff) for a living, and he constantly rails about them, but not in the way you'd expect. They come from the factory with a 'default' setting, and are SUPPOSED to be calibrated for each individual venue. This is where it all falls apart, because the owner of said establishments have to pay extra for the calibration service, and it's a case of "It's working-I'm not paying extra" in most cases.
All this probably means the meter's you are coming across have been set to "Folk Duo" settings, so naturally are going to be no use to a 'real Music' venue.

[MrRatty]

Thanks for all your feedback. I think it's something we'll have to watch out for when we agree gigs at new venues and be sure that venue is either happy to bypass the limiter or has it calibrated to "Real Music". The one last night certainly seemed to be "Folk Duo" and we could only have played if we'd turned down to 1 and given the drummer money to go to the cinema!

[bobbytodd]

we have played quite a few places with limiters.normally you can get around them by using plug sockets from a different room.but they are a massive pain in the arse

[Roger2611]

Venues often have sockets that are not connected to these stupid limiters, there are two venues we play at with them and as we are setting up the landlord always comes over and says "use these sockets they are not connected to the limiter" seems to defeat the object of having a limiter somewhat but I guess when the neighbours complain about noise levels and the council comes round he can demonstrate - limiter in place + limiter functioning correctly = unreasonable neighbour with nothing better to do than complain!

[BILL POSTERS]

[quote name='Junkyard Rocket' timestamp='1375574936' post='2163158']
These things are pointless & idiotic - I won't play a venue with them if we are using our own backline.

The last time I encountered one was in a function room at a council-run theatre / arts centre where it triggered before any amps were plugged in, but the drummer was fiddling with his snaredrum. Without being asked, the tech there provided an extension cable plugged into a socket in the kitchen for us to plug into instead.
[/quote]

This. Aint seen one for years, always refused to mess around with em. But thats the way to do it.

[JapanAxe]

I have known these things to be triggered by audience noise!

Also at one venue I checked the sockets that we were supposed to use (I always carry a ring main tester) and found that there was no earth connection. I had no trouble in convincing the venue management that we should use a different socket. There were no complaints about the sound levels.

[chris_b]

We usually ran a lead from the cigarette machine socket. Failing that we turned down. Not ideal I know but we've turned up and we're not going home empty handed.

On the other hand, if a venue is required to install a noise limiter by the Council then it is in breach of its licence if it allows you to bypass the limiter. That's a big deal for a venue.

Whether a limiter is pointless or not isn't for the band to decide.

A band might have other things to think about, like why do we have a drummer who is so inflexible that he can't alter his volume and, the band is looking like a bunch of amateurs if it is constantly loosing power by playing too loud.

Gigging bands don’t live in a bubble anymore. Noise was always an issue to neighbours and these days their complaints are being listened to.

You either adapt or you don't gig as much as you would like.

[hubrad]

I've played plugged into these systems quite a few times over the years. I can see the point, especially if they have had complaints. The trouble seems to be that different sensors appear to be most sensitive to different frequencies. Sometimes the bass trips the switch, other gigs it's the fiddle. Are we talking health and safety here, or neighbours' complaints, or has some entrepreneur simply stitched the venue up with a 'you really need one of these' line?

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1375615557' post='2163414']
We usually ran a lead from the cigarette machine socket. Failing that we turned down. Not ideal I know but we've turned up and we're not going home empty handed.

On the other hand, if a venue is required to install a noise limiter by the Council then it is in breach of its licence if it allows you to bypass the limiter. That's a big deal for a venue.

Whether a limiter is pointless or not isn't for the band to decide.

A band might have other things to think about, like why do we have a drummer who is so inflexible that he can't alter his volume and, the band is looking like a bunch of amateurs if it is constantly loosing power by playing too loud.

Gigging bands don’t live in a bubble anymore. Noise was always an issue to neighbours and these days their complaints are being listened to.

You either adapt or you don't gig as much as you would like.
[/quote]

Points well made and taken. I just hate playing with one eye on the pesky traffic lights!

[fretmeister]

And they can cause issues with some valve amps when the power is cut mid power chord

[TimR]

BigAlOnBass has some interesting points that are echoed here, along with some work rounds and things to watch out for.

http://www.astralsound.com/noise-limiters.htm

[MrRatty]

Brilliant feedback - thank you very much. I think we'll make sure that we check for limiters when we consider new venues and probably have to turn down any venues with limiters unless they can confirm that they are OK for drum kit level music. Although we might be able to reduce the volume of the drums to keep the limiter happy, I don't think any of us would enjoy playing that way. And that's why we do it, to enjoy it. Thanks again for your thoughts and help.

[mike257]

The first time I ever encountered one was as a sound engineer for a blues rock band doing pubs and clubs. I was still setting the PA up when the un-miced snare drum tripped it. The landlord happily obliged with providing extra sockets.

I've never come across one that won't trip with a band of reasonabke volume, but more often than not the venue staff are aware and understanding. Its not uncommon to be told "plug in to those sockets over there, but I didn't tell you that".

[BigRedX]

Has anyone ever checked if the liability for excessive noise at a venue that is fitted with one of these devices rests with the venue or if it can be extended to the band as well? Especially when the landlord denies all knowledge of allowing the band to by-pass the device.

Let's face it. These devices are only fitted because there have been complaints about the noise levels in the venue. These venues shouldn't be putting on bands that are too loud for the settings on the device (and if the device hasn't been calibrated properly that is not the fault of the musicians playing).

[TimR]

It's the landlords responsibility to ensure his neighbours aren't being subjected to nuisance noise. It's his licence and consequently livelihood at stake.

Assuming that the landlord is present of course.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1375698382' post='2164332']
It's the landlords responsibility to ensure his neighbours aren't being subjected to nuisance noise. It's his licence and consequently livelihood at stake.

Assuming that the landlord is present of course.
[/quote]

And what would be the band's liability, if the landlord lost his licence as a result and consequently sued them for by-passing the noise limiter system?

[TimR]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1375698641' post='2164339']


And what would be the band's liability, if the landlord lost his licence as a result and consequently sued them for by-passing the noise limiter system?
[/quote]

I can't see that happening. He would have to prove that the loss of license was attributed to that single event (it wouldn't be).

If the landlord is having that much problem with his neighbours and was still intent in holding music events there are other avenues available to him (see link).

[borisbrain]

We encounter these things very occasionally and they are truly awful. Strangely enough, they're more sensitive to guitars and drums in the mid-range EQs than loud punchy bass. However, anything more than a whispering acoustic folk band [i]will [/i]set them off, and your beautifully crafted/rehearsed set [i]will [/i]come to a grinding halt mid-song, making the band, not the venue, look like prats.

As others have said, find an alternative power source, or avoid altogether.

Bestaluck

BB

[Ian Savage]

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1375613410' post='2163377']
I have known these things to be triggered by audience noise!

[/quote]

Yep, me too - mostly ridiculous, pointless devices. Frankly IMO if your venue is in a residential area, you're going to struggle to put on a full amplified band with a drummer; look for bands using electronic kits, source some acoustic acts or go disco/karaoke.

Sorry, I just threw up in my mouth a little bit

[Balcro]

I've served enough notices on breweries and managers to know that many of the older devices were put in following complaints from residents. The old units with just the "electronic orange" were also poorly specified with limited tweaking allowed, so they usually appeared over sensitive. I've known them be set-off by audience hand-clapping without music. Crazy.

They're usually fitted too close to the band or screwed to a low ceiling, sometimes both. An impossible & impractical situation.

The newer models have adjustable A, B or C "weighting" switches inside the box, so Environmental Health Officers or Acoustic consultants can set them to best match the likely noise. If those guys aren't there when the box is installed, then they're probably not set-up at all. For any rock-pop group you need "C" weighting. Light-music/folky stuff should be OK with "B". "A" weighting in a musical entertainment venue is a waste of time.

Since the 2005 Licensing Act, a few new units have been fitted as part of a requirement for a Licence because Environmental Health thought it likely there would be a problem, so no definite complaint history had been established. Some pubs etc., are so close to houses and bedrooms that IMO they should never have been granted a licence. The situation is ridiculous for all
concerned.

If the manager/landlord shows you how to by-pass the connected socket, then that's down to to him. The council can act against him. It's always the manager's fault unless he can prove that he didn't know the noise controller had been by-passed. Even so he could still get "done" because he's supposed to know! Even when there's chewing gum residue over the microphone or sensor!

Balcro.