Am I just a thick bass thumper?

[TimR]

Jazzneck, you start a post then don't reply? This is a pretty common topic here.

What exectly sounded 'the same'?

The FOH can only change a few things. Compression, reverb, and EQ. The mixer, power amps and speakers are going to be exactly the same - and technically should be fairly transparent. If you are DIing the only thing that will be majorly different is the player and the bass.

Talk to the engineer about what you want to hear otherwise he will use his experience to dial in something that he knows will work on his gear at that venue.

[Conan]

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1372980378' post='2132555']
Utter bollocks.
[/quote]

That's bordering on trolling man. Where is your evidence for this assertion?

[Jazzneck]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1373007917' post='2132634']
Jazzneck, you start a post then don't reply? This is a pretty common topic here.

What exectly sounded 'the same'?

The FOH can only change a few things. Compression, reverb, and EQ. The mixer, power amps and speakers are going to be exactly the same - and technically should be fairly transparent. If you are DIing the only thing that will be majorly different is the player and the bass.

Talk to the engineer about what you want to hear otherwise he will use his experience to dial in something that he knows will work on his gear at that venue.
[/quote]

My abject apologies Tim - I didn't realise that I had to answer my own questions.......

However, a lot of constructive views have been posted which indicates to me that unless you have your own kit, PA and dedicated sound man, no bass player is going to get "their" sound coming out FOH wherever they play.
So my bottom line is that I will continue to treat all sound men with great respect and as part of the band.
I will work with them to get the best sound available for the band and venue so everyone can have fun and enjoyment from any set I play.

[BigRedX]

Over the last few years I've come to the conclusion that at the level the majority of us play at on here most of the time it really doesn't matter what you sound like out front for the average audience member. The important things are that the overall volume level of the band is not too loud (or too quiet) and that the vocals can be heard. Everything after that is just icing in the cake. Its far better to put on a show and to be entertaining because that's what the audience can relate to, and what will bring the compliments and merchandise sales after the gig. Unfortunately having a great bass sound (or not) will make little difference.

If you are really serious about having exactly the sound that your band wants FoH (and remember it's the whole band sound that is important not the individual instruments) then get your own sound engineer who is knows what they are doing and can prove it to the house engineer in seconds. Also stop playing multi-band gigs with sub 30 minute change over times. Sometimes though it easier to have a moan then to actually do anything about it.

[lowregisterhead]

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1372980378' post='2132555']
Utter bollocks.

[/quote][quote name='Conan' timestamp='1373009267' post='2132644']
That's bordering on trolling man. Where is your evidence for this assertion?
[/quote]

[size=4]As Christopher Hitchins once said, "That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." The robust language is simply proof of his belief in his [/size]position.

[peteb]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1372986586' post='2132591']
Thanks for the heads-up guys.

I'm on the British Stage this year.

I'll be on the look out for problems.
[/quote]
Who are you playing for?

I'm playing on the trail on the Friday...

[JTUK]

.[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1372953500' post='2132097']
Most* sound guys just want to get the night over with and go home, the last thing they care about is what the bass sounds like, that's why they'll spend an hour EQing the drums and probably under a minute on the bass. Even if you do get a post-EQ signal out to the desk most guys will pull out most of your signal anyway.

Sadly most sound guys are rockers, and they're used to the bass sound in rock bands, so they think your role is purely to make the guitar sound bigger. In reality most bands have hopeless plodding bass players anyway so their beliefs are reinforced daily. Good luck getting anything better out of them.

* I did say 'most'.
[/quote]

Not entirely unsympathetic to some points in this post.

A few recent examples of gigs I attended and played.

Name band and line-up in a classic setting... a refurbed church.. which will have its own problems but the bands can't be loud and heavy anyway and they aren't.

Soundman has main vocal of main band waay too quiet and the bands vox and harmonies are more of a feature than most.
I walked to various places in the hall to find that they were no better in any one spot..so couldn't resist asking the engr
is that the best vox level he's got.. The P.A was Meyer and I've heard it sound good in the venue...
The engr replied the monitors were too loud..???????
This same engr 'forgot' to move a drum monitor for the drummer..and the drummer asked a few times before he got up and moved it himself.. Did that look bad..?? IT DID..!!
It also transpired that the desk was digital and he hadn't used one before. The other engr shipped in by the support had their own engr who when he found out the desk type..and he had no time on it..downloaded the manual on the way to the gig.

Recent Fest...soundman spent 20-30 minutes on soundcheck..and the band ..who I knew, asked me if it was alright. I didn't want to put them off as they were nervy....so I said it was ok to start with, thinking the soundman would/should attend to tweaking it during the set...
He didn't... everytime I looked back to see if he could see the band gestulating at the vox monitors, he was chatting away, blindly oblivious...
Another one..our drummer got up and walked off stage and said there was no f***** kick in the FOH..let alone the monitors.to the Engr. This was in song 3 and he had asked from the stage 3 times..
The keys were mssing FOH most of the time. At least we made sure he wasn't on the gig this year.

So, .. beware of one man P.A shows. We go with 2 man minimum crews and for any multi bills, you need a Stage manager

Edited July 5, 2013 by JTUK

[Jazzneck]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1373010493' post='2132660']
Over the last few years I've come to the conclusion that at the level the majority of us play at on here most of the time it really doesn't matter what you sound like out front for the average audience member. The important things are that the overall volume level of the band is not too loud (or too quiet) and that the vocals can be heard. Everything after that is just icing in the cake. Its far better to put on a show and to be entertaining because that's what the audience can relate to, and what will bring the compliments and merchandise sales after the gig. Unfortunately having a great bass sound (or not) will make little difference.

If you are really serious about having exactly the sound that your band wants FoH (and remember it's the whole band sound that is important not the individual instruments) then get your own sound engineer who is knows what they are doing and can prove it to the house engineer in seconds. Also stop playing multi-band gigs with sub 30 minute change over times. Sometimes though it easier to have a moan then to actually do anything about it.
[/quote]
Thanks Big Man, you're right - that says it all - my philosophy for now and the future, methinks.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Jazzneck

[4 Strings]

Funnily enough I have more of an issue with drum sounds than bass. I always have a chat with the engineer if (on the rare occasion we go out foh) to describe how I want things (yes it does end up being down to me!), otherwise depth charge kick drums, bass guitar and keyboard end up fighting and blurring at the bottom end. We mostly play soul and so I tell them to have the bass below the kick and keys are generally to be kept out of 'my' frequencies. For us the kick drum should sound like a kick drum, but louder, not a bass heavy earthquake. And, yes, there should be some mid in the snare sound, often this ends up with a harsh scoop.

I find this affects our overall sound more than subtleties in my own tone. Maybe that's the next step.

The engineers I've spoken to are normally happy to have a go at this.

Oh, to be able to have our own engineer!

[Guest bassman7755]

your amp have a "post" DI ? if not then get one that does. Also try to get "your sound" such that is not overly dependent on your specific speaker cab (i.e. use one with a flat-ish response) because engineers don't like miking up bass due to it being more difficult to control bleed at low frequencies.

-- edit --

Another option is buy yourself a DI box than take a signal directly from your amps speaker output e.g. http://www.andertons.co.uk/pa-outboard/pid10282/cid624/img-stage-line-dib100-passive-di-box.asp?LGWCODE=10282;56375;2717&utm_source=googlebase&utm_term=241140&utm_medium=pricecomp&utm_campaign=GoogleShopping&gclid=CNfet4-FmLgCFYW23godwWoAFw

Edited July 5, 2013 by bassman7755

[4 Strings]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1373015744' post='2132729']
your amp have a "post" DI ? if not then get one that does. Also try to get "your sound" such that is not overly dependent on your specific speaker cab (i.e. use one with a flat-ish response) because engineers don't like miking up bass due to it being more difficult to control bleed at low frequencies.

-- edit --

Another option is buy yourself a DI box than take a signal directly from your amps speaker output e.g. [url="http://www.andertons.co.uk/pa-outboard/pid10282/cid624/img-stage-line-dib100-passive-di-box.asp?LGWCODE=10282;56375;2717&utm_source=googlebase&utm_term=241140&utm_medium=pricecomp&utm_campaign=GoogleShopping&gclid=CNfet4-FmLgCFYW23godwWoAFw"]http://www.andertons...CFYW23godwWoAFw[/url]
[/quote]

But no matter what signal you give the sound man he can still eq it to make it sound like the last band he did. Unless you have a particularly distinctive sound (JJ Burnell for example) it's difficult to over-ride him. Hence, from my experience, a nice chat with him of what's best for your band and he'll probably comply.

[peteb]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1373015744' post='2132729']
your amp have a "post" DI ? if not then get one that does. Also try to get "your sound" such that is not overly dependent on your specific speaker cab (i.e. use one with a flat-ish response) because engineers don't like miking up bass due to it being more difficult to control bleed at low frequencies.

-- edit --

Another option is buy yourself a DI box than take a signal directly from your amps speaker output e.g. [url="http://www.andertons.co.uk/pa-outboard/pid10282/cid624/img-stage-line-dib100-passive-di-box.asp?LGWCODE=10282;56375;2717&utm_source=googlebase&utm_term=241140&utm_medium=pricecomp&utm_campaign=GoogleShopping&gclid=CNfet4-FmLgCFYW23godwWoAFw"]http://www.andertons...CFYW23godwWoAFw[/url]
[/quote]
I am guessing that you probably have not played too many of these types of gigs?

The problem is that many sound engineers that these gigs do not want to have to deal with loads of different bass sounds, not to mention varying quality amp DIs, so they will take a (pre) DI straight from the instrument. The better guys will be more confident of taking a post DI out of the back of your amp and quickly getting a better representation of your sound. If they can be bothered!

Of course, they will ensure that the headline band will get their full attention and the best sound (both on & FOH) that they can achieve! But then again, presumably most of the punters have paid their money to see the band at the top of the bill…

[Dad3353]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1372953511' post='2132098']...Sad fact; the suppoThe desk will be set up for the main band. They bring the punters in and will be take 99% of the FOH guy's time and effort...[/quote]

I don't wish to add much to the OP subject, but my long experience in France, for this particular point, is absolutely the opposite. There may be exceptions, but I've never seen them. Having assisted touring groups, doing FOH or lights, as headliners or, mostly, as support, I've only ever had and seen equal commitment given to all groups. This, for festivals, clubs, concerts or whatever. I have also been involved in the organisation of a very popular French festival (Les 3 Elephants...), and, over many years, have always seen the same. Maybe I've simply been lucky over all these years, or maybe the Continental ethic is different..? Not saying the above is not the case, simply that I certainly don't recognise that over here, and would be shocked to witness such.

[Lee Carter]

Be nice to the engineer, we want you to sound as good as you can. A sh*t sound drives the punters away.

My basic rule of thumb (which goes for all bands on a mutil bill or a single bill), always take from the post-di if available, keep the PA as flat as possible and just compensate for the room. Your sound FOH will always be different once you have a room full of people, and will be compensated as such to get you as close to "your" sound (band and instrument) as possible. Know your gear, the amount of times I've asked about post-DI to get a blank look.

I will always do the best I can with the time available, remember it's a sound/line check not a rehearsal (that really pisses me of!!).

Disclaimer: A lot of the above may be very egg sucky, but it's way I roll :-)

[chris_b]

IME bands [i]are[/i] treated differently on the continent.

Thankfully, I don't do multiband gigs, so I don't do shared gear and shared sound guy. I don't see how any sound guy is going to provide anything other than a generic mix in a multiband situation.

We usually treat the sound guy as another member of the band. That gets us someone who you can talk to, build a rapport with and work with. 99.9% of the guys I've worked with over the last 20 years have been great.

Also, IME woolly in gets you woolly out. Use a rig with definition and clarity and you'll be 90% of the way there.

[TimR]

[quote name='Jazzneck' timestamp='1373009278' post='2132646']
My abject apologies Tim - I didn't realise that I had to answer my own questions.......

...
[/quote]

That's not quite what I meant, usually people post to discuss things. Just seemed to me that you had fired out a pretty common question then run away. That's all. Almost trolling

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1373013453' post='2132689']
Funnily enough I have more of an issue with drum sounds than bass.
[/quote]
I've noticed more and more the latest fashion for having the kick drum really loud and clicky, it may be ok for metal heads but for a old school punk band? I don't think so.
Back to the OP I use a zoom 506II and always make sure it's in the chain before the DI, that way I have a bit of a chance of 'my sound' fighting it's way through to FOH

[Monckyman]

Seems to me,( and I have my own f***witted engineer stories also,)that most bassists like to be in control of technical matters, and consequently don't like complete strangers delivering their sound to an audience.
Yes, engineers spend lots more time on drums than bass.
There are usually however, between 5 and 13 microphones on a drum kit, with loads of rattly out of tune drums that may need gating and individually EQing etc.
The drummer will then insist on Floydian monitor levels of kick drum in his wedge causing several more problems to deal with.
The bass on the other hand has a D.I and possibly a Mic.,usually sits in the same spectrum as everybody else's bass and can be EQd,compressed and out there in less than ten minutes.
If it takes longer the engineer is an idiot.
Which is what you think anyway so...

My wedding band rarely gets engineered by anyone but myself, but on three occasions we have played beer fests and a club with its own system.
Gig one, big outdoor fest, nice onstage monitors and desk, pro engineer.Who was on the phone during our set and rarely looked up to see if we wanted anything.
w***er.
Gig two in a club with an "engineer" who clearly couldn't operate the old Yamaha 01 properly, so who didn't actually EQ anything at all.
He was out having a smoke when our Backing track d.i went down. He didn't approve of them anyway so they remained inoperative for the whole set.
Gig three beer fest in a tent. Another digi desk with the Gaffa Lad mixing. I know he was the company gofer coz they were all out at another much larger fest.
He saved our sound check to the desk but didn't take into account the analogue pre amps,so when he recalled, after doing ankther two loud guitar bands all our levels were completely wrong.
He refused to accept this and did nothing.
Accoustic D.I died during set, he did nothing.

By this time I'm gearing up to twatting him with my bass but manage to grit teeth and carry on.

There are a lot of young and inexperienced engineers in local clubs,coz they work for peanuts and need the experience.
If we are working at that level we just have to try to ensure we are prepared and have as much info for them as possible to get the best gig experience.
No point getting upset about it, you aren't paying them, the clubs barely pay them and it will always be like that.
My local club often does 6 bands a night and the engineer gets £60
That's a tenner a band for a sound check a changeover and a show.
More money working at MacDonalds.

[Jazzneck]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1373018395' post='2132783']
That's not quite what I meant, usually people post to discuss things. Just seemed to me that you had fired out a pretty common question then run away. That's all. Almost trolling
[/quote]

Not trolling Tim - just a straightforward pair of questions...............

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1373013453' post='2132689']
We mostly play soul and so I tell them to have the bass below the kick
[/quote]

I am constantly surprised by the engineers I meet round here that can't quite grasp the idea of eqing my EUB underneath the kick drum so that they both have a happy place to sit. They raise an eyebrow when I ask them if they can try for that before the gig.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1373017540' post='2132756']
I am guessing that you probably have not played too many of these types of gigs?

The problem is that many sound engineers that these gigs do not want to have to deal with loads of different bass sounds, not to mention varying quality amp DIs, so they will take a (pre) DI straight from the instrument. The better guys will be more confident of taking a post DI out of the back of your amp and quickly getting a better representation of your sound. If they can be bothered!

Of course, they will ensure that the headline band will get their full attention and the best sound (both on & FOH) that they can achieve! But then again, presumably most of the punters have paid their money to see the band at the top of the bill…
[/quote]

No I've only done a couple of such things but in both cases the conversation with the engineer was "hey, you got a DI on your amp" "yes" "cheers". It beats me why anyone would prefer to take a raw instrument feed that needs EQing and compressing when they can just take the amp feed. Whatever next, are they going to take a midi out from the keyboard because they want them to all sound the same - it just defies all logic.

[Les]

I haven't done a lot of gigs with an engineer but the ones I've had seem to be perfectly reasonable and did a good job. I'm not terribly fussy though, I just plug in and as soon as it sounds like a bass guitar that's ok for me.

For those who are fussy and have their own sound, I'm not sure how a guy you've never met and has never heard you before is going to get your sound to your satisfaction, unless you have a radio lead and are stood next to him at the desk directing operations for however long it takes.

That sounds like a big ask for an engineer with 4 or 5 bands to soundcheck.

[peteb]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1373019975' post='2132815']
No I've only done a couple of such things but in both cases the conversation with the engineer was "hey, you got a DI on your amp" "yes" "cheers". It beats me why anyone would prefer to take a raw instrument feed that needs EQing and compressing when they can just take the amp feed. Whatever next, are they going to take a midi out from the keyboard because they want them to all sound the same - it just defies all logic.
[/quote]
It just saves a bit of time and effort on their part as they will use the same EQ & compression as they did for the last bass player. If you are lucky, there are a some engineers doing these gigs who will ask if you want a post DI out of your amp but unfortunately not all by any means...

Edited July 5, 2013 by peteb

[BigRedX]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1373019975' post='2132815']
No I've only done a couple of such things but in both cases the conversation with the engineer was "hey, you got a DI on your amp" "yes" "cheers". It beats me why anyone would prefer to take a raw instrument feed that needs EQing and compressing when they can just take the amp feed. Whatever next, are they going to take a midi out from the keyboard because they want them to all sound the same - it just defies all logic.
[/quote]

This.

No sound engineer no matter how incompetent would ever think about doing anything other than stick a mic in front of the speakers for a guitar amp. Why should the bass be any different?

TBH at the gigs I do where I'm using my own rig the PA engineer is always grateful that 1. I have a DI socket on my amp so he won't have to use one his terrible Behringer DI boxes, and 2. That it's on the front where they can easily plug in an XLR. No one has ever asked me to give them a specific pre-EQ feed (which they wouldn't get as it also cuts out the FX loop).

[JTUK]

It is not so much control over the engr or sound, so much, but a question of responsibility.
I wouldn't say we are hard to work with at all... but then we aren't too impressed if things
go wrong..when they could easily be right. I understand the engr might be at the gig for way too long..and needs a break.
That is why there needs to be two.
We like to have our views understood so the sound oputput is just as crucial as our playing. The playing we can
do something about..the FOH, less so. So, what may come across as pricky or prima...is only about being vocal enough to get things as they should be..or could be.

We might try and stipulate this and that... and we might be listened too. We would get involved in planning to help the show be as good as poss. We wouldn't like to think it is coming across as a bunch of stuck up so and so's.
An example of this might be that we 'advise' the booker what P.A, lights and Generator/stage company as we have meet them before and they are just a known entity.
There are too many things to go wrong...so you try and head them off.

But...there may be a fine line between how this comes across so a good positive attitude helps