This Should Be The Goal of Everyone Here

[Lowender]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1370949607' post='2107751']
If applause and dancing punters is enough for folk, then they will have long and happy careers. I am genuinely happy for them. It's not what motivates me, that's all. My loss? I don't think so but I have never been attracted to that part of the industry.

Actually, thinking about it, if that is the element that motivates anyone, they shouldn't really complain about Cowell etc. It is what drives him sothey should admire him. Shouldn't they?
[/quote]

I think we have a chicken/egg scenario here. There's a difference between being an entertainer and a ham. If applause and a dancing crowd is all you want and will stoop to any level to get it , well, that is hardly art. But to create good music that also makes people want to dance and applaud -- that's something very special. All the greats had it, from Mozart to Basie to Coltrane and Corea.

Didn't you make a post recently where you were listening to one of your own songs and you weren't aware of it? Well, if it wasn't memorable to you, how memorable do you think it would be to others? Something to consider. Art is communication. Art can be entertaining. Excluding all enjoyable aspects from it doesn't make it more artsy. It just makes it less good.

[mickster]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1370950358' post='2107763']
Didn't you make a post recently where you were listening to one of your own songs and you weren't aware of it? Well, if it wasn't memorable to you, how memorable do you think it would be to others? Something to consider. Art is communication. Art can be entertaining. Excluding all enjoyable aspects from it doesn't make it more artsy. It just makes it less good.
[/quote]

True...as is the reverse, of course. Just because something is entertaining / memorable / has mass appeal doesn't ensure that it's art or has merit beyond simply being popular. It's the old art vs populism debate again, and one is often used to make a case for or against the other, (incorrectly, IMO). This is the same trap our friend Inti kept falling into.

Edited June 11, 2013 by mickster

[Bilbo]

The simple truth is that there are many types of music and many uses for music. Getting teenage girls to scream is just one of them and isn't necessarily the one we all aspire to.

[Skol303]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1370951432' post='2107779']The simple truth is that there are many types of music and many uses for music. Getting teenage girls to scream is just one of them and isn't necessarily the one we all aspire to.[/quote]

This.

Pop music has a well-defined agenda, of course. And that certainly involves making teenagers scream (and buy merchandise). So in the context of the Beatles - or anyone aspiring to replicate their success - it makes sense.

But less so when applied to other genres of music. And so not necessarily something that should be the goal of [i]everyone[/i] here.

[Earbrass]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1370946549' post='2107716']
The difference is, a half century after the fact, a generation far removed from the hype is listening to and enjoying this. Why is that? Oh yeah....it's good.
[/quote]

But they're not screaming at it, are they - they're listening to it. The ability to make teenagers scream and the quality of the music are totally unrelated - it's just that in this case, as it happens, the band had both.

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1370950358' post='2107763']
Excluding all enjoyable aspects from it doesn't make it more artsy. It just makes it less good.
[/quote]

Do you scream and wet your knickers when you're enjoying yourself?

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1370947156' post='2107723']
That bass line is what makes the chorus catchy. It's far from irrelevant. (if you care about the role of the bass and its power).
[/quote]

But I'm sure that they were screaming just as loud during all the other songs, irrespective of the quality or catchiness of the bassline (or any other individual instrumental part). IMO this is a mistake that lots of musicians make singling out one instrument in an arrangement; sure it might be a great sound or choice of notes, but its the whole arrangement that makes it as good as it is. Concentrate on the whole song, that's the really important thing.

[Earbrass]

Talking of making young girls scream...our morris side often has a big impact on small children (we look a bit scary in black masks and black tatters) - either they love us or we scare the c**p out of them. Back in April we were dancing in Oxford and a woman with two small children in tow stopped to watch. One of the kids was absolutely petrified, screaming and crying, but the woman kept a tight grip of her hand, and made her stand there and watch - I felt quite sorry for her. We had fun afterwards imagining the conversation......"but MUM!!!!, you don't understand....I've seen this on Dr Who - they [b]WILL[/b] eat us !!!".

[lowdown]

Interesting Video [French TV ?]
Producer holds up the 'Scream' board for the first chorus.
Then forgets the second chorus....nothing....
Or maybe they were all changing knickers at the time.

All good fun.......[Love the ending]


Garry

[Cat Burrito]

I can't remember the last time I did something to try & impress teenage girls... I'm aiming for the Mums!

[Low End Bee]

[quote name='BurritoBass' timestamp='1370957749' post='2107917']
I can't remember the last time I did something to try & impress teenage girls... I'm aiming for the Mums!
[/quote]

Yep

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='BurritoBass' timestamp='1370957749' post='2107917']
I can't remember the last time I did something to try & impress teenage girls... I'm aiming for the Mums!
[/quote]

It's either driving back from a festival in Wales to take my step-daughter out for her 18th birthday, or auditioning for my current band, who are led by a teenage girl.

That's not what you meant is it?

Populism is over-rated, I liked Metal machine music, it sent tingly happiness up my spine. Everyone else I play it too tells me to turn that sh*t off.

[Conan]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1370950358' post='2107763']If applause and a dancing crowd is all you want and will stoop to any level to get it , well, that is hardly art. Art is communication. Art can be entertaining. [/quote]

Hmmmm.... we've been [i]here[/i] before, haven't we?

[Lowender]

Geez, lighten up guys. It's not a comment about celebrity,or fashion, or adolescence. The "screaming girls" comment was rhetorical of sorts -- to suggest that something is just so moving or just so much fun, it makes you want to to react. THAT is a part of good music.

True, something being popular doesn't necessarily mean it's good. But it doesn't necessarily mean it's bad. And something unpopular doesn't necessarily mean it's just for sophisticated audiences. Sometimes it's unpopular simply because it stinks.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1370960081' post='2107959']
Geez, lighten up guys. It's not a comment about celebrity,or fashion, or adolescence. [b]The "screaming girls" comment was rhetorical of sorts -- to suggest that something is just so moving or just so much fun, it makes you want to to react. THAT is a part of good music. [/b]

True, something being popular doesn't necessarily mean it's good. But it doesn't necessarily mean it's bad. And something unpopular doesn't necessarily mean it's just for sophisticated audiences. Sometimes it's unpopular simply because it stinks.
[/quote]

Mate, you don't really think it's the music those girls are screaming about do you? Seeing the fab four in the flesh makes real a year of freshly-pubescent fantasies, that's why they are screaming and fainting and knicker-wetting.

EDIT: for the best typo I've ever made!

Edited June 11, 2013 by xilddx

[BILL POSTERS]

[i]'Write a bass hook that makes 5000 teen age girls scream in ecstasy'[/i]



According to a previous thread, you just need to keep playing F#

Edited June 11, 2013 by BILL POSTERS

[Lowender]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1370960728' post='2107967']
Mate, you don't really think it's the music those girls are screaming about do you? Seeing the fag four in the flesh makes real a year of freshly-pubescent fantasies, that's why they are screaming and fainting and knicker-wetting.
[/quote]

sigh

[xilddx]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1370962235' post='2107993']
sigh
[/quote]

You are totally crap at having a discussion aren't you. Why do you bother? You make intelligent pronouncements with some thought provoking insight and they are interesting to read, regardless of whether other people may agree with your point of view. However, if someone challenges your opinion, you turn into a wet f*cking flannel, unable to add anything of any value or accept and discuss others' opinions. Stop being a prima donut and DISCUSS stuff rationally will you ffs.

[Earbrass]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84aWlfQRkfY

[Lowender]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1370963823' post='2108011']
You are totally crap at having a discussion aren't you. Why do you bother? You make intelligent pronouncements with some thought provoking insight and they are interesting to read, regardless of whether other people may agree with your point of view. However, if someone challenges your opinion, you turn into a wet f*cking flannel, unable to add anything of any value or accept and discuss others' opinions. Stop being a prima donut and DISCUSS stuff rationally will you ffs.
[/quote]

It's not that. I don;t get the sense that you're challenging or debating or discussing anything. You just provoke by nitpicking minutia and I'm not in the mood to go back and forth. I explained myself. If you don't get it, you don't get it. .

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1370949607' post='2107751']
If applause and dancing punters is enough for folk, then they will have long and happy careers. I am genuinely happy for them. It's not what motivates me, that's all. My loss? I don't think so but I have [b]never[/b] been attracted to that part of the industry.
[/quote]

Never? [i]Never?[/i] Not even when you were in [i]that metal band [/i]in your wild and crazy yout' ?

Try 'seldom'. Seldom's good, you old humbug.

[Bilbo]

I know what you mean, Skank, but, even in the early days, I was always about the music and I have always found that a good audience reaction has not worked for me if I think the music is pants. I also enjoy a gig where the music is great even if the audience is ambivalent. I remember at age 17 or 18 having an argument with the guitar player in NWOBHM band No Quarter about 'being taken seriously' as a musician. It was around a photo shoot where the photographer wanted us to wave our 'heavy metal fists' at the camera - I remember thinking we looked like a bunch of prats. I remember never wanting to buy 'pointy' basses that looked the part because I didn't think they were serious instruments etc. I just think I was always attracted to the art of it even before I knew what the broadest sense of the art of it actually meant. I have never 'posed' on stage and have never really had the impulse to 'entertain'. Now I am a published author/biographer, I have no interest in how many copies are sold, only that the book is making a contribution to the recorded history of the music. Not sure what all of this says about me but there you are.

I would that I am not hostile to those who do want to entertain, to get the audience dancing etc and, if it happens, I get a buzz same as everyone else. My only issue is with the assumption that this is what all of us want from playing. It isn't. If I was offered a regular gig where the music was horrible but the audiences were potentially big, I would turn it down (I have turned down two tribute bands recently - Motown and Nat King Cole).

[xilddx]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1370971111' post='2108135']
It's not that. I don;t get the sense that you're challenging or debating or discussing anything. You just provoke by nitpicking minutia and I'm not in the mood to go back and forth. I explained myself. If you don't get it, you don't get it. .
[/quote]
Ok, if that's what you think. I won't question your thoughts and ideas ever again, I promise you.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1370972532' post='2108157']
I know what you mean, Skank, but, even in the early days, I was always about the music and I have always found that a good audience reaction has not worked for me if I think the music is pants.[/quote]

Quite right, IMO, and fair play to you old chum, as ever.

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1370972532' post='2108157']I have never 'posed' on stage.[/quote]

My fantasy is shattered.

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1370972532' post='2108157'] I remember at age 17 or 18 having an argument with the guitar player in NWOBHM band No Quarter about 'being taken seriously' as a musician. It was around a photo shoot where the photographer wanted us to wave our 'heavy metal fists' at the camera...[/quote]

Oh my! Do you still have any photos from that shoot? I'd pay - ooh - at least £20 just to [i]see[/i] them, not even to keep or anything. Prize in the next BC tombola?

Edited June 11, 2013 by skankdelvar

[xilddx]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1370972532' post='2108157']
I know what you mean, Skank, but, even in the early days, I was always about the music and I have always found that a good audience reaction has not worked for me if I think the music is pants. I also enjoy a gig where the music is great even if the audience is ambivalent. I remember at age 17 or 18 having an argument with the guitar player in NWOBHM band No Quarter about 'being taken seriously' as a musician. It was around a photo shoot where the photographer wanted us to wave our 'heavy metal fists' at the camera - I remember thinking we looked like a bunch of prats. I remember never wanting to buy 'pointy' basses that looked the part because I didn't think they were serious instruments etc. I just think I was always attracted to the art of it even before I knew what the broadest sense of the art of it actually meant. I have never 'posed' on stage and have never really had the impulse to 'entertain'. Now I am a published author/biographer, I have no interest in how many copies are sold, only that the book is making a contribution to the recorded history of the music. Not sure what all of this says about me but there you are.

I would that I am not hostile to those who do want to entertain, to get the audience dancing etc and, if it happens, I get a buzz same as everyone else. My only issue is with the assumption that this is what all of us want from playing. It isn't. If I was offered a regular gig where the music was horrible but the audiences were potentially big, I would turn it down (I have turned down two tribute bands recently - Motown and Nat King Cole).
[/quote]

I know exactly what you mean, Rob. The best gigs I've ever had have been when the band is on form and we're enjoying the show, the audience is visibly enjoying it, and that I feel the music is 'good' (that's got to be a given for me, I will never get much pleasure from playing music I don't enjoy or think is 'good' whatever that means to me). There's a song I'll be playing on Friday that I can't stand, and even though it's an audience favourite, I never enjoy playing it. I think it's the bass and piano harmony, it's a unison line and it sounds empty and naive to me. That said, regardless of any musical integrity, I will try to be an entertainer if there's an audience, I will make that cruddy bass line mean something to me with accents and nuances and hopefully it will speak.

[redstriper]

I think most of us musicians who play live want to be at least liked and at best adored by our audience.
Why else would we get up on stage?

Or am I the only one