"Cutting Through The Mix"

[flyfisher]

I've read this phrase here a lot and have often wondered what it really means. Simplistically, I assume it means being heard clearly, but I'm wondering why this should be a particular problem for bassists because I don't associate the phrase being used by vocalists or guitarists, for example.

Even more simplistically, I'd have thought that bassists should have an advantage when it comes to being heard because they've almost got their very own sonic space to work within. Yes, a kick drum will overlap our main frequency region, but singers won't and nor will guitarists usually.

So what's going on to make it apparently so difficult for the bass to 'cut through the mix'?

All I can think of is the trend/fashion/desire, call it what you will, of some bassists to have a bright, zingy sound. This will obviously require some much higher frequency components to the bass 'sound', which will compete head on with vocals and guitars. If these higher frequencies somehow get lost 'lost in the mix' then then would this explain this phenomenon?

Which makes me think of double basses and EUBs. These don't strike me a bright, zingy instruments so do these players also experience problems with 'cutting through the mix'?

[discreet]

I imagined it was because bass frequencies have long wavelengths and need exponential amounts of extra power to be perceived to be at the same 'volume' level as (say) guitars, which is why bass amps are rated at hundreds of watts and guitar amps rated at tens of watts?

[Lozz196]

Yes, to me, the bass is easily audible, but maybe this is more to do with each note clearly being heard, rather than in a supporting role. Really the way to cut through, to me, is to lose some of the lows, rather than boost the highs, and then if not able to be heard, turn up a bit. That way there`s no competing on those high areas. But personally I like a lot of lows and am not really into cutting through, preferring a support role on which the guitars can build.

[Happy Jack]

IME this is not a problem that afflicts bass players in 3-piece bands. Add a second guitar, though, and things can get tricky. Add a second guitar [i][b]and [/b][/i]a keyboard player and yes, cutting through can be an issue.

Edited January 21, 2013 by Happy Jack

[flyfisher]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1358771106' post='1944610']
I imagined it was because bass frequencies have long wavelengths and need exponential amounts of extra power to be perceived to be at the same 'volume' level as (say) guitars, which is why bass amps are rated at hundreds of watts and guitar amps rated at tens of watts?
[/quote]

Agreed, but wouldn't that just make the issue a matter of power? What I'm thinking of are the frequent posts we read about people changing basses, pups or strings etc often in the quest to better 'cut through the mix'.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1358771183' post='1944612']
Yes, to me, the bass is easily audible, but maybe this is more to do with each note clearly being heard, rather than in a supporting role. Really the way to cut through, to me, is to lose some of the lows, rather than boost the highs, and then if not able to be heard, turn up a bit. That way there`s no competing on those high areas. But personally I like a lot of lows and am not really into cutting through, preferring a support role on which the guitars can build.
[/quote]

That makes perfect sense to me, so perhaps it's more of a style issue - perhaps for bassists who like to play almost as a 'lead' instrument? (which is definitely not me).

Edited January 21, 2013 by flyfisher

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1358772156' post='1944639']
That makes perfect sense to me, so perhaps it's more of a style issue - perhaps for bassists who like to play almost as a 'lead' instrument?
[/quote]

No, [b]No[/b], [i][b]NO[/b][/i]!!!! Bass is not a lead instrument!!!

When I think about "cutting through" it's because the beautiful, clean tone of my bass is getting lost somewhere in the mush caused by a Les Paul on the neck pickup with the amp set to the highest Bass setting.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1358771954' post='1944632']
IME this is not a problem that afflicts bass players in 3-piece bands. Add a second guitar, though, and things can get tricky. Add a second guitar [i][b]and [/b][/i]a keyboard player and yes, cutting through can be an issue.
[/quote]

OK, but how do the two guitars then handle the problem of 'cutting through'? Presumably by not just both playing the same thing . . . So is that a clue for bassists having this problem? Are they trying to play too much the same as the other instruments?

After all, the bass [u]can[/u] be played as a 'lead' instrument can't it? Why else does it have all those high frets. LOL

Edited January 21, 2013 by flyfisher

[oggiesnr]

I play DB with a motley crew of musicians playing assorted squeezeboxes, guitars, whistles and bangy things. For me the secret of being heard is to stay down low and slide underneath. If I get fancy and go up the neck I get lost in the mush.

IMHO if you're going to play lead stuff up the neck then you need to work out your arrangements with the rest of the group very carefully. However the acquisition of an electic, five string fretless means that I can now play all those jigs and reels that go down to "D" on the bass end of the neck instead of venturing up to the twelfth fret and beyond and be heard without playing at insane volume.

Steve

[BigRedX]

I think that "cutting through the mix" is not the right phrase to describe what is wanted.

In the majority of rock/pop bands (the ones that aren't Joy Division, Level 42 or Japan) the bass wants to be underpinning the whole band sound, giving it some "heft" and gluing the melody and the rhythm together. You want to be able to hear the notes, but they don't want to cut through. I would call this "sitting nicely in the mix". If it's right it will sound fantastic out in the audience.

However on stage that level is very often to quiet for the bassist to be able to hear themselves properly. How much this matters will depend on the type of band and the bassists role in it. I can play all the bass parts I need for my band without being able to hear what I'm doing at all. It won't make for a particularly inspiring gig experience for me, but I can get it done. However in these situations I will stick exactly to what I know from rehearsals works and not even think about improvising any fills, flourishes etc. Also I won't move about as much and will spend more time looking at my left hand because I won't be able to hear if I'm suddenly a semi-tone out, but I can see it.

[LukeFRC]

I used to play in a largish church band, acoustic guitar, electric, keys, and backing singers- quite busy.

If I used the Ashdown rig they had there I would get a big fat sound that would fill the room - but be constantly told to turn down. On the other hand my Hughes and Kettner Quantum 600 head (with the same cabs or my own) would have a lot more focused sound, warm and fat but taking up less of the mix space. So you could say I cut through the mix better, and sounded better I want that amp back!

Ironically my Warwick streamer before I changed the pups and pre was way way too prominant in the mix for what I wanted. It stood out too much

[Skol303]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1358773418' post='1944673']In the majority of rock/pop bands (the ones that aren't Joy Division, Level 42 or Japan) the bass wants to be underpinning the whole band sound, giving it some "heft" and gluing the melody and the rhythm together. You want to be able to hear the notes, but they don't want to cut through. I would call this "sitting nicely in the mix". If it's right it will sound fantastic out in the audience.[/quote]

^ Spot on.

A bass doesn't always need to cut through a mix. More often than not it just needs to sit comfortably [i]within[/i] the mix... but of course it's all totally dependent on the genre and song in question, etc.

When mixing, if I want the bass to cut through I normally try one or all of the following:

- Add a little distortion (which creates higher frequency harmonics).
- Add a boost around 1khz frequency.
- Scoop out the mids (anywhere from 200-500Hz) to remove some of the 'mud' and create space for competing instruments.
- Use a pick rather than fingers (if I'm recording it myself).

... or just turn it up!

[discreet]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1358771973' post='1944634']
Agreed, but wouldn't that just make the issue a matter of power? [/quote]

It is for me, because I play in a three piece and can afford to have a fairly scooped sound, which gives heft [i]and [/i]note definition (I'm a pick player). But as Jack says, if we also had a second guitar and keys, I'd probably be boosting the low mids to achieve the same (or a similar) result.

Edited January 21, 2013 by discreet

[The fasting showman]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1358772292' post='1944645']
No, [b]No[/b], [i][b]NO[/b][/i]!!!! Bass is not a lead instrument!!!

When I think about "cutting through" it's because the beautiful, clean tone of my bass is getting lost somewhere in the mush caused by a Les Paul on the neck pickup with the amp set to the highest Bass setting.
[/quote]
I'm so glad that somebody else other than me has experienced this problem too, a guitarist using a neck position PAF just doesn't combine well with a P bass at all. I've found using a Stingray can help to a certain extent, along with pleading with them to use the bridge pickup.

[Conan]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1358773418' post='1944673']
I won't be able to hear if I'm suddenly a semi-tone out, but I can see it.
[/quote]

It happens...
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewTJWKeGLAY"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewTJWKeGLAY[/url]

[discreet]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1358774739' post='1944705']
...if I want the bass to cut through I normally try one or all of the following:

- Add a little distortion (which creates higher frequency harmonics).
- Add a boost around 1khz frequency.
- Scoop out the mids (anywhere from 200-500Hz) to remove some of the 'mud' and create space for competing instruments.
- Use a pick rather than fingers (if I'm recording it myself).

... [b]and[/b] just turn it up! [size=4][/quote][/size]
[size=4]Fixed for you. [/size]
PS: YES to all the above, by the way.

Edited January 21, 2013 by discreet

[JamesBass]

In my experience, the bass frequencies matter yes, but it is the mid and treble that provide the cutting edge and the punch. It is the need to blend these frequencies with the guitars and vocals that creates the problem. It's all well going out and altering your tone to be as bassy as possible but without the mids and treble frequencies you will only properly "feel" the bass. When I studied Physics (Perhaps the worst idea of my life!) We had a huge unit all around waves and frequencies and as part of the assignment I looked at blending musical tones effectively live, having looked at the power of certain guitar amps it was obvious that there are more commercially available higher wattage bass amps, just to get the naturally low frequency waves out as far as the much higher energy frequencies produced by the Guitar and Vocals.

If I remember correctly, the guitar frequencies and amps are optimum at around 15-30m from source, on a loud rig. Where as the bass frequencies aren't optimum till around 60m? Double and more of that of the guitars. Plus add to equation that unfortunately the majority of us aren't Level 42 or John Entwistle, we under pin and give the foundations to the majority of genres and music. I'm not saying that we shouldn't be heard, but it is a mix of many factors when it comes to it! Such as sound guy, equipment, genre, technique and personal preference.

In my opinion the bass shouldn't always be dominant and always be heard but when it requires it the balance of the band and the bass should allow for it.

[cheddatom]

I've been to see so many local bands with two guitars and a bassist, and while you might be able to "feel" a mushy rumble, you cannot tell what the bassist is doing. I don't mind if the bass is totally lacking in high mids or top end, that's fine, but it should be "clear" and to me this is what "cutting through" means. Generally, it's when the guitarists have too much low end in their sound, and they don't realise it, 'cos they're standing right next to their cabs where adjusting the low control on their amp has no audible effect.

[tonyquipment]

It's a common misconception which EQ solves.

A lot of the time guitards occupy frequencies which other instruments 'should' occupy.

EQing both bass and guitar for a fair share of spectrum space is the way forward for a nice full sound

[discreet]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1358775918' post='1944740']
...it's when the guitarists have too much low end in their sound, and they don't realise it, 'cos they're standing right next to their cabs where adjusting the low control on their amp has no audible effect.[size=4][/quote][/size]
[size=4]Yep. [/size]Even one guitarist can be a problem if he (or she) is hogging the low end. It's totally unnecessary and as you say, half the time they don't even know they're doing it. I'm lucky at the moment as our guitarist is also a producer and fully realises where he is in the scheme of things. Also the drummer likes a fairly clicky kick sound, so I can fill me boots as far as the bottom is concerned (fnarr) which is great.

Edited January 21, 2013 by discreet

[SteveK]

It's not really possible to give a definitive answer without hearing those that have the problem actually in their working environment, ie. on stage.
Traditionally the bass is not meant to 'cut through the mix', at least, not in the way that I understand 'cutting through' to mean. I think many bass players forget what the role of the bass actually is. I can't imagine anything worse than the bass 'cutting through' for an entire gig.
If however, there are [i]sections[/i] of a song, or maybe the [i]occasional whole[/i] song where bass needs to take a more up front role, then backing off the low end and bringing up the higher frequencies a tad would probably help. But, more importantly, the bass should be considered when arranging this type of the song. It's not going to work if the drummer is playing hell for leather, the guitarist is blasting his power chords and keys player has got some symphonic string sounds happening... in that scenario the bass player stands no chance of 'cutting through'. [b]It's all in the arranging![/b] Things may need to be backed off, instruments may need to drop out entirely, parts may need to be changed. Basically, everyone in the band needs to understand what is trying be achieved for each part of the song, and [i]knowing[/i] how to achieve this will differ from song to song. Some get it right, and unfortunately, some get it totally wrong.

Edited January 21, 2013 by SteveK

[xilddx]

As Steve says, it's all in the arrangement. In fact his last paragraph is bang on imo. But you need sympathetic musicians with some experience or instinct to realise this.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1358774937' post='1944714']
It happens...
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewTJWKeGLAY[/media]
[/quote] wow, how she managed to get her keys part in the right key and then stand up and play the bass in the wrong key... how?

[xilddx]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1358777660' post='1944781']
wow, how she managed to get her keys part in the right key and then stand up and play the bass in the wrong key... how?
[/quote]

She publically apologised for this f*** up two years ago. But I'm struggling to find a connection between this vid and the thread mate, have I missed something?

Edited January 21, 2013 by silddx

[Stan_da_man]

Generally speaking, a bass tone sitting well in the mix will sound crap soloed.