Am I a musician, or do I just have a good memory?

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='BILL POSTERS' timestamp='1357399138' post='1922091']I dont know any theory,[/quote]

Hmm.

[quote name='BILL POSTERS' timestamp='1357399138' post='1922091']never had a lesson, and worked it out for myself. [/quote]

Worked what out for yourself? I thought you said you didn't know any theory?

It sounds like you do know some theory. If you didn't know any, you wouldn't be aware of what you don't know. And I imagine the theory that you've worked out for yourself has been useful or you wouldn't have retained it. Don't you think that even more theory would be even more useful?

I don't think anybody here has belittled anybody for what they don't know. Only suggested that knowing more is never a bad thing.

[lojo]

Our native tounge is a bit mad, anyone who gives it a go is a musician, but I'm not a footballer even though I play every week.

I also like cooking but I'm not a cook

Musician is most likely one of the few things we can label anyone without defining if they are a paid professional or not.

Edited January 5, 2013 by lojo

[jakenewmanbass]

By this dictionary definition you are a musician, all other points whilst interesting do nothing to undermine this basic premise...



[indent=1]One who composes, conducts, or performs music, especially instrumental music.[/indent]

[lojo]

[quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1357401122' post='1922133']
By this dictionary definition you are a musician, all other points whilst interesting do nothing to undermine this basic premise...



[indent=1]One who composes, conducts, or performs music, especially instrumental music.[/indent]
[/quote]

The especially instrumental music is a bit odd ?

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1357401377' post='1922140']
The especially instrumental music is a bit odd ?
[/quote]
I thought so too...

perhaps it intimates that a singer/songwriter is categorised slightly differently or even dually...

Edited January 5, 2013 by jakenewmanbass

[lojo]

[quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1357401644' post='1922148']

I thought so too...

perhaps it intimates that a singer/songwriter is categorised slightly differently or even dually...
[/quote]

Which is a shame, because your post could have ended any discussion or debate, now it's open again

I still stick to my first post , the answer is BOTH

[jakenewmanbass]

if you think about the word 'Mus-ic-ian
it is 'for the muse'
amuse... entertain....
looking at it that way, simply by doing it you are it!
In other pursuits it tends to suggest professionality to some degree or another

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1357401803' post='1922153']
Which is a shame, because your post could have ended any discussion or debate, now it's open again

I still stick to my first post , the answer is BOTH
[/quote]
I would say both too... I just like defining statements...

[Lord Sausage]

[quote name='Gust0o' timestamp='1357313122' post='1920818']
Music existed before the theory of it ever did. Make of that what you will
[/quote]
Not strictly true, theory would have existed but hadn't been discovered/worked out. Like the theory of physics or chemistry etc.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1357394693' post='1922007']
Wasn't dismissing it at all, just saying in the context of the original post, it doesn't make you a complete all rounder like some think, but I'd not be so silly as to dismiss it
[/quote]

Agree, I dont recall anyone saying that though ...

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1357400992' post='1922128']
Our native tounge is a bit mad, anyone who gives it a go is a musician, but I'm not a footballer even though I play every week.

I also like cooking but I'm not a cook

[b]Musician is most likely one of the few things we can label anyone without defining if they are a paid professional or not.[/b]
[/quote]

Any of 'the arts' fall into this IMO, if you paint stuff you are an artist makes no difference if anyone buys it or if it is even for sale does it? Sculpter, painter, glass maker, actor etc can all be done either as a hobby or as a pro and with others or on your own, even acting with the likes of youtube etc

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1357377729' post='1921715']
Years back in my first band I couldn't make a gig - so a friend of a friend dep'ed for me - that band was mostly really really simple lines and he turned up and wanted to add double thumbing on a song, and could play all this stuff that was technically way beyond me - obviously he had a bit of theory behind him.
We had one song where... well the bass was playing the "wrong" notes I think it was something like the keys was on this pattern in some form of A major and the Bass in a pattern based around A minor or something - can't remember exactly - but what it meant was you had these two shifting melodies and you had dissonant tension and release- and I thought it sounded great! (it did) This fella couldn't cope with the "wrong" notes and dissonance so of course had to tell me it was "wrong" and put it all in the major key - hence the song didn't work!
[/quote]

Interesting story. But I think its a possibilty that had you got a dep who played purely by ear he might also have objected to it fro "sounding wierd" - if someone understood theory propely you can at least explain that the dissonance was diliberate.
Theory does not tell what is right and wrong - it merely categorises structures and sounds, a nuance that was obviously lost on this particular gentleman.

[TimR]

[quote name='JakeBrownBass' timestamp='1357400194' post='1922108']
Abit late to this topic and only got so far through so apologies if this sounds like a rant.



Jaco had a huge understanding of music theory. You do know that most of the Weather Report stuff was written right? As in it sounded so out there and boundary pushing because it had been composed and written that way.

Also,
People on this forum seem to think that by knowing theory restrains you from playing what you want because you're working within rules.
All the theory does is explain the rules to you, give a name to what you're hearing. It allows you to speak and comunicate with one another.

Yes music is a language, and you learn to speak before you read & write. But ate you guys telling me you wished you never did English at school and never wanted to read or write, as it will hold you back in your creativity in speaking?!

That's what I thought.
[/quote]

I think the problem is that people keep thinking of theory in terms of rules. I keep going back to this point but there are no rules, or at least there is no enforcement of them if there are. They're more like a guide that you put in your back pocket and pull out when you get lost.

It's like there are rules of spelling. i before e except after c. That doesn't work either does it, as there are more words that are the exception to that rule than actually follow it...

[BILL POSTERS]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1357400430' post='1922116']
Hmm.



Worked what out for yourself? I thought you said you didn't know any theory?

It sounds like you do know some theory. [/quote]

Only what I've forgotten from my lousy secondary modern school education, where music lessons were mainly just a singsong, and even then I got told to not bother cos I sang out of tune.

I dont think in scales, I think in shapes. I could work out what the notes are if I cared though. I bought a few books when I started,but tbh left em out after page 2 or 3.cos they were too heavy. Time sigs just come sort of naturally.

I wouldnt expect anyone who has learned by formal training to understand the last paragraph, most people I try to explain it to dont. My daughter, who plays Bass, did music at school, and who I made sure had piano lessons as well, Cant work out what I'm talking about if I try to show her anything my way.

[Zenitram]

Right, but that doesn't mean you don't know any theory.

Everyone, [i]everyone[/i] knows some theory.

See here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A13_QGMtlRE

[SpaceChick]

[quote name='Zenitram' timestamp='1357406882' post='1922263']
Right, but that doesn't mean you don't know any theory.

Everyone, [i]everyone[/i] knows some theory.

See here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A13_QGMtlRE
[/quote]

That is soooooo cool

[Count Bassy]

Do you enjoy what you're doing? Do others enjoy it? If so, who cares what you call yourself?

[TimR]

[quote name='Count Bassy' timestamp='1357417781' post='1922487']
Do you enjoy what you're doing? Do others enjoy it? If so, who cares what you call yourself?
[/quote]

I always enjoy what I'm doing, and usually everyone else enjoys it too. Although sometimes you would be hard pressed to describe the noise that our band makes as music...

[dmccombe7]

Musician is someone who entertains.
Doesn't really matter how you reach that point.
Provided it is musically entertaining to an audience then answer is YES.

I use a combination of reading, tabs and simply listening from CD to obtain what i need to allow me to play and entertain an audinece.
IMO that makes me a musician.

Like most things in life there are different levels and different routes on how you get there.

At end of the day be happy with what you are doing. Sounds like you are having a ball.
Well done

Dave

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Zenitram' timestamp='1357406882' post='1922263']
Right, but that doesn't mean you don't know any theory.

Everyone, [i]everyone[/i] knows some theory.

See here:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A13_QGMtlRE[/media]
[/quote]
Brilliant and he is also in better shape than me, I would of needed an hour to get my breath back!

[urb]

To the OP I would say also that there are many levels of 'musician' - from whatever you perceive as basic through to advanced - I've been playing for 25 years but typically the more I learn and progress the more I realise just how little music I really know - I guess I do call myself a musician but knowing just how good the really good ones are I don't see myself as being of that calibre - perhaps if I keep playing with those who are better than me and learning and challenging myself then I'll get incrementally better but I still feel I have a long way to go... I guess you can call yourself a musician whatever level you are at but the top level of the truly great musicians - and I'm including the likes of JS Bach and Frank Zappa there among countless others, Wayne Shorter and John Coltrane etc etc - those guys are operating on an extraordinairy level of awareness - where they can express the language of music so easily that everything just flows together. Like others have said does being able to write your name make you an author, simply put, no... contrary to our get famous quick culture for doing virtually nothing - great art requires a great amount of work - just like achieving anything else of real value in life.

[bigd1]

Thebrig what a great question. This is my take on an answer, or at least what I think a musician is........
A Musician is some one who makes music. What form that takes, is what defines you as a musician. In basic terms you are a musician if you can bang 2 stones together, pluck a string, press a key on a keyboard, make a sound on brass or use your voice.
Being a musician for me is that I make music, other people my disagree and think I make a din !! but that's music.
I would say it's not if you can remember a few bars of music, a full cover song. If this was the case free form would then not be music (I would be in the camp of it's not, but everyone to there own ). it is an expression thing, it's full of emotion it can say something you may find difficult to express. it covers in everything in life.
If you make a sound YOU think is musical, I believe that makes you a musician.
Having the skills of understanding theory, and being able to play a cover song, etc, etc, and etc, all add to you being a musician.
So YES you are a MUSICIAN.

Ta very glad
BIGd

Edited January 6, 2013 by bigd1

[topo morto]

There is a big range of skills in music, and few musicians have anywhere near 'the full set', whatever that would be...

If you can play the parts more or less as they should go, with the important bits in the right place, with the right feel, and look the part on stage - those are the necessary skills for being a musician in a rock covers band. (I myself struggle with the last one).

As to whether there's anything else to learn - it depends what else you want to do. Do you want to be able to elaborate on and alter the parts you are playing? Do you want to be able to learn / play from score as well as by ear? Or create classy, sophisticated jazz versions of the songs you are playing? All would require learning different things.

[BILL POSTERS]

Picasso was an artist, sos the bloke who draws in chalk on the pavement not also an artist ? Course he is.

But your not an artist if you do painting by numbers pictures are you ?

[topo morto]

'art' and 'artist' are the two of the most useless words in the language - no one agrees on what they mean, hence the words 'what is art?' are usually uttered in jest. The word 'musician' is perhaps almost as bad...