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Musicman20

What's the big problem with 4x10s?!

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[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1343837000' post='1756088']
Crap gear like gear that sounds bad from where you are standing? Obviously as demonstrated above, that can be the fault of the bassist for not knowing how to use it, but equally it can be down to it sounding totally fine from where the bassist is.
[/quote]

No, crap gear that sounds crap from anywhere, including on stage (often having heard it from on stage while moving my gear about during soundcheck). When you go to a gig and the sound's bad, do you automatically assume it's because the bassist's using a 410 because that's what it sounds like.

Conversely, I've never had a bad word said about my 410RBHs (at least the sound. The size and weight is a different matter). Soundguys have regularly said they liked the sound of them when I was using them and they didn't have any radical shifts in sound as I moved about.

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[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1343836996' post='1756087']
The COMBINATION of your playing, your bass, the amp and the cab. And the strings come to that. That's why every time you email me asking if you can have a Compact for cheap, I email you back asking a whole bunch of questions like this:

"What amp do you use? What cab(s) do you currently use? What do/don't you like about them? What music do you usually play? What kind of bass sounds are you into (links to youtube etc clips helpful)? What bass(es) do you play? What strings do you use and how new/old do you like them? What kind of gigs do you usually play?"

It is all interactive! Last year someone persuaded me to sell them a Compact even though I said it was the wrong choice - and it came back. Nowadays people get the cab (or one of the cabs) that I say will suit or they don't get anything. There's no way I'd have suggested you gig with an SVT3 and a Compact doing the music you were doing back then, no way!
[/quote]

It is interactive. For the record, I actually asked if your offer was still on for the Compact. Mainly because I was starting to think that I should give it a try in the band I was in.

I think the main problem is, people don't like being patronised, (which tends to be the approach that the guys who just cut and paste from the internet do). In addition, people don't like being told what is right and wrong when some of it is theory. They don't like being told their gear is wrong, when they've been happy with it for years.

I KNEW this topic would turn into this. Half of the reason I started it was curiosity to see how it would divide people. Indeed, it has.

Edited by Musicman20

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[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1343836996' post='1756087']
The COMBINATION of your playing, your bass, the amp and the cab. And the strings come to that. That's why every time you email me asking if you can have a Compact for cheap, I email you back asking a whole bunch of questions like this:

"What amp do you use? What cab(s) do you currently use? What do/don't you like about them? What music do you usually play? What kind of bass sounds are you into (links to youtube etc clips helpful)? What bass(es) do you play? What strings do you use and how new/old do you like them? What kind of gigs do you usually play?"

It is all interactive! Last year someone persuaded me to sell them a Compact even though I said it was the wrong choice - and it came back. Nowadays people get the cab (or one of the cabs) that I say will suit or they don't get anything. There's no way I'd have suggested you gig with an SVT3 and a Compact doing the music you were doing back then, no way!
[/quote]

That post has put me off your cabs without even hearing one, I'm not being an arse but my choice of cab (s) is largely based on me playing a bit of rock one night with a wedding band dep gig the next and maybe a bit of reggae a few days later, I dont like 4x10's for the record or even 2 2x10's (personal taste nothing more) but I know a good 4x10 or 2x12 with an adjustable tweeter will cover all those gigs I have metioned,even my little Genz 3.0 can run a decent 4x10, the only thing I would expect to need a certain cab for is dubstep which I dont play (yet) :)

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Pete, we have a one month trial period and we don't want to waste people's time or our own time selling them an inappropriate cab, or waste their money and our money shipping it back and forth. Our smaller cabs (unsurprisingly) can't handle certain bigger gigs in certain styles and ones without tweeters won't do certain tones etc etc. Our Super Twelve T does everything you'd expect a great 4x10" to do (but better in other ways). But if you're chasing smaller and lighter than we wouldn't want someone to end up with something that can't do what they want because they're pushing the envelope too far.

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1343837802' post='1756113']I think the main problem is, people don't like being patronised, (which tends to be the approach that the guys who just cut and paste from the internet do). In addition, people don't like being told what is right and wrong when some of it is theory. They don't like being told their gear is wrong, when they've been happy with it for years.[/quote]

This all seems much more of an emotional and psychological issue than an amplification one!

For the record, we ran an offer last December which was a pre-Xmas offer and it was clearly stated as such. Gareth emailed me in February and again in May asking if we could repeat the that offer or do another discount. We don't do discounts or endorsements unless there's a really strong business case (like Flea saying "I want a cab!") because it wouldn't be fair to everyone else, many of whom are working bassists, who are paying full price. Others ask as well. I'm sorry I mentioned it, I'm just getting tired of hearing the same things over and over and over and over again from the same person!

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I would love to see this discussion put in to action. I mean, maybe we should arrange a bass day type meeting with a set of cabinets of different configurations in a room with say a couple of amps and some source material - say, recordings of a Bass guitar that can be repeated for each test. THEN have some techie guinea pigs up front to describe and demonstrate these 'issues' accurately. We'd all be able to have a clear understanding of what these polar problems and phasing problems [b]sound[/b] like. Right?

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[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1343838674' post='1756125']
Pete, we have a one month trial period and we don't want to waste people's time or our own time selling them an inappropriate cab, or waste their money and our money shipping it back and forth. Our smaller cabs (unsurprisingly) can't handle certain bigger gigs in certain styles and ones without tweeters won't do certain tones etc etc. Our Super Twelve T does everything you'd expect a great 4x10" to do (but better in other ways). But if you're chasing smaller and lighter than we wouldn't want someone to end up with something that can't do what they want because they're pushing the envelope too far.



This all seems much more of an emotional and psychological issue than an amplification one!

For the record, we ran an offer last December which was a pre-Xmas offer and it was clearly stated as such. Gareth emailed me in February and again in May asking if we could repeat the that offer or do another discount. We don't do discounts or endorsements unless there's a really strong business case (like Flea saying "I want a cab!") because it wouldn't be fair to everyone else, many of whom are working bassists, who are paying full price. Others ask as well. I'm sorry I mentioned it, I'm just getting tired of hearing the same things over and over and over and over again from the same person!
[/quote]

..I hate to say this, but this isn't doing your business much good. I did ask for the offer, I haven't denied that. You have implied something else though. You have started to become borderline offensive towards my opinions. I have avoided being offensive as it becomes ridiculous, plus, aren't we all a bit passed that?! Just think about exactly what you are discussing here. It was a simple topic, no need for anything else.

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[quote name='dood' timestamp='1343838971' post='1756134']
I would love to see this discussion put in to action. I mean, maybe we should arrange a bass day type meeting with a set of cabinets of different configurations in a room with say a couple of amps and some source material - say, recordings of a Bass guitar that can be repeated for each test. THEN have some techie guinea pigs up front to describe and demonstrate these 'issues' accurately. We'd all be able to have a clear understanding of what these polar problems and phasing problems [b]sound[/b] like. Right?
[/quote]

Great idea, and thanks for saving the topic!

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[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1343838674' post='1756125']For the record, we ran an offer last December which was a pre-Xmas offer and it was clearly stated as such. Gareth emailed me in February and again in May asking if we could repeat the that offer or do another discount. We don't do discounts or endorsements unless there's a really strong business case (like Flea saying "I want a cab!") because it wouldn't be fair to everyone else, many of whom are working bassists, who are paying full price. Others ask as well. I'm sorry I mentioned it, I'm just getting tired of hearing the same things over and over and over and over again from the same person!
[/quote]

Obviously there's some kind of history and connection between the two of you, & I've read back as far back as I can be arsed to to see where this exchange started. But this is a genuine question and not a dig; do you usually discuss your clients' requirements, what they asked for, where they went wrong etc on a public forum? As I say, genuine, I'm not accusing you of blame, it may not be you that "started it".

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[quote name='dood' timestamp='1343838971' post='1756134']
I would love to see this discussion put in to action. I mean, maybe we should arrange a bass day type meeting with a set of cabinets of different configurations in a room with say a couple of amps and some source material - say, recordings of a Bass guitar that can be repeated for each test. THEN have some techie guinea pigs up front to describe and demonstrate these 'issues' accurately. We'd all be able to have a clear understanding of what these polar problems and phasing problems [b]sound[/b] like. Right?
[/quote]

Will slide-rules & measuring tapes be provided alongside the gaffer tape and sticky buns?

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[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' timestamp='1343837687' post='1756107']
No, crap gear that sounds crap from anywhere, including on stage (often having heard it from on stage while moving my gear about during soundcheck). When you go to a gig and the sound's bad, do you automatically assume it's because the bassist's using a 410 because that's what it sounds like.

Conversely, I've never had a bad word said about my 410RBHs (at least the sound. The size and weight is a different matter). Soundguys have regularly said they liked the sound of them when I was using them and they didn't have any radical shifts in sound as I moved about.
[/quote]

If its crap sound where I am, its crap sound, even if the bassist thinks it sounds fine where he is. Might be because he likes crap sound, might be because it sounds good where he is. I don't make automatic assumptions, but I do know some things to be fact, and use them as reference points to figure out where a problem is.

Also for Dood, 'a room' won't cut it because room effects are part of it. But polar response is easy enough to demonstrate with a sine and being outside with no nearby walls with you cab. Or by being in a band with a guitarist who has a 4x12 and eqs without their head in front of the speaker, and if you've been there are tried to explain the problem to them, you know how those of us trying to explain to people in this thread feel.

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[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1343839155' post='1756143']
But this is a genuine question and not a dig; do you usually discuss your clients' requirements, what they asked for, where they went wrong etc on a public forum? As I say, genuine, I'm not accusing you of blame, it may not be you that "started it".
[/quote]

I think my topic has wound a few people up.

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[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1343838674' post='1756125']
Pete, we have a one month trial period and we don't want to waste people's time or our own time selling them an inappropriate cab, or waste their money and our money shipping it back and forth. Our smaller cabs (unsurprisingly) can't handle certain bigger gigs in certain styles and ones without tweeters won't do certain tones etc etc. Our Super Twelve T does everything you'd expect a great 4x10" to do (but better in other ways). But if you're chasing smaller and lighter than we wouldn't want someone to end up with something that can't do what they want because they're pushing the envelope too far.



This all seems much more of an emotional and psychological issue than an amplification one!

For the record, we ran an offer last December which was a pre-Xmas offer and it was clearly stated as such. Gareth emailed me in February and again in May asking if we could repeat the that offer or do another discount. We don't do discounts or endorsements unless there's a really strong business case (like Flea saying "I want a cab!") because it wouldn't be fair to everyone else, many of whom are working bassists, who are paying full price. Others ask as well. I'm sorry I mentioned it, I'm just getting tired of hearing the same things over and over and over and over again from the same person!
[/quote]
I'll swap a super 12 for a broken peavey 210tx and a faulty 400w marshall head from the 90's :D ;)

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[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1343839111' post='1756138']
..I hate to say this, but this isn't doing your business much good. I did ask for the offer, I haven't denied that. You have implied something else though. You have started to become borderline offensive towards my opinions. I have avoided being offensive as it becomes ridiculous, plus, aren't we all a bit passed that?! Just think about exactly what you are discussing here. It was a simple topic, no need for anything else.
[/quote]

I've followed this thread and I have to say as a totally impartial bystander that I certainly don't interpret Alex's attitude in any of this to be 'offensive'! You may well not like Alex's cabs or Alex for all I know but IMHO Alex has stepped forward and taken his time to explain the science behind his views and opinions.

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[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1343839379' post='1756149']
I think my topic has wound a few people up.
[/quote]

I think you're right, and not without reason. Who said there was anything wrong with 4x10s in the first place?

There's nothing wrong with a 4x10 (unless its actually broken), just like there's nothing wrong with a 20 year old BMW that is in full working order. The thing is technology has progressed, the new 3 series is more efficient, lighter and more powerful. And the new generation of 2x12 lightweight cabs from your manufacturer of choice do sound better, are more efficient and easier to cart around than a 4x10.

I upgraded from a damned good SWR 4x10 to a Barefaced Super12T. I phoned Alex about the Compact offer too, but I was recommended the Super12. I can hear the difference and I'm more than happy with it thanks.

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[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1343839155' post='1756143']Obviously there's some kind of history and connection between the two of you, & I've read back as far back as I can be arsed to to see where this exchange started. But this is a genuine question and not a dig; do you usually discuss your clients' requirements, what they asked for, where they went wrong etc on a public forum? As I say, genuine, I'm not accusing you of blame, it may not be you that "started it".[/quote]

The history was that back in 2009 we had two Barefaced Compacts which went out for Basschatters to try. Lots of people used them and reported back. Gareth was the first link in the chain with one of those cabs and I asked what amp he had and said that it should be fine for his band and the gig he had coming up. He then used someone else's amp for the gig and that amp was the SVT3 which I knew wouldn't have been suitable. And since then he's posted a few dozen times on talkbass and basschat about the deficiency of the Compact when he gigged it.

So no, he's never been a customer, he's one of the many basschatters that tried a Compact during the 'Barefaced on tour' thread. Apart from the initial pm or email exchange about what address to send it to, what's your amp and what's your band sound like exchange, everything since then has been open on the basschat or talkbass forum.

Edited by alexclaber

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I should add that I heard his band and it sounded good and he's a decent bassist and I liked his tone on the recordings. But the combination of factors didn't work, and the main problem was that bloody SVT3!

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[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1343840207' post='1756174']
The history was that back in 2009 we had two Barefaced Compacts which went out for Basschatters to try. Lots of people used them and reported back. Gareth was the first link in the chain with one of those cabs and I asked what amp he had and said that it should be fine for his band and the gig he had coming up. He then used someone else's amp for the gig and that amp was the SVT3 which I knew wouldn't have been suitable. And since then he's posted a few dozen times on talkbass and basschat about the deficiency of the Compact when he gigged it.

So no, he's never been a customer, he's one of the many basschatters that tried a Compact during the 'Barefaced on tour' thread. Apart from the initial pm or email exchange about what address to send it to, what's your amp and what's your band sound like exchange, everything since then has been open on the basschat or talkbass forum.
[/quote]

Clever idea & it took faith & balls to do it, kudos for that, & strangely it's an idea I was musing over doing for a project I've got underway. I haven't seen any previous exchanges in other threads.
Out of curiosity what cab would you have suggested for the SVT? As I said, no slur intended, I was looking to understand the exchange.

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[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1343840645' post='1756182']
Out of curiosity what cab would you have suggested for the SVT? As I said, no slur intended, I was looking to understand the exchange.
[/quote]

Need to have all the other factors in place along with it, mostly the sort of sound aiming for.

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[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1343839718' post='1756160']
I've followed this thread and I have to say as a totally impartial bystander that I certainly don't interpret Alex's attitude in any of this to be 'offensive'! You may well not like Alex's cabs or Alex for all I know but IMHO Alex has stepped forward and taken his time to explain the science behind his views and opinions.
[/quote]

I agree entirely.

I'll even go further and say that there almost appears to be an agenda behind the thread.

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[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1343841617' post='1756205']
I agree entirely.

I'll even go further and say that there almost appears to be an agenda behind the thread.
[/quote]

Seriously? Thats like me saying 'there is an agenda behind your defence to BF'.

If you aren;t party to it, you can't tell if you'd be offended.

Alex barely visits Basschat, or barely posts, whichever, so its odd that his return is an argument.

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[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1343839718' post='1756160']
I've followed this thread and I have to say as a totally impartial bystander that I certainly don't interpret Alex's attitude in any of this to be 'offensive'! You may well not like Alex's cabs or Alex for all I know but IMHO Alex has stepped forward and taken his time to explain the science behind his views and opinions.
[/quote]

I'm quite happy for anyone to say whether they would or wouldn't be offended, but I have been singled out, and I feel a little aggrieved, so yes, not happy.

Edited by Musicman20

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