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Musicman20

What's the big problem with 4x10s?!

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Surely, the soundman would PREFER to have the amps/cabs mic'd or DI'd, then use the PA to mix those with the vocals and drums?

I know I would. Why? Because that much stage volume, (to cover what the PA would throw out) would be ridiculous, and would take the fun out of playing. Even with earplugs, which I use all the time, it'd be a nightmare.

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Six pages in less than 24 hours. Woah. Obviously a contentious area.

Let's compare the high end products available.

Bergantino HD410, (similar in many ways to the HS410) (£875.00)

VS

Barefaced Super 12 (Around £865.00 for the Vintage Cloth version incl. the current neo surcharge)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is it about the Super 12 that outranks it over Jim's 4x10?

Similar prices, both aiming at the high end boutique side of the market.

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[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1343833171' post='1755976']
Surely, the soundman would PREFER to have the amps/cabs mic'd or DI'd, then use the PA to mix those with the vocals and drums?

I know I would. Why? Because that much stage volume, (to cover what the PA would throw out) would be ridiculous, and would take the fun out of playing. Even with earplugs, which I use all the time, it'd be a nightmare.
[/quote]

Don't need much stage volume with good dispersion, the problem with those cabs is that they get turned up too loud because the audibility is poor off axis. The not having ears in knees syndrome.

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[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1343833913' post='1755995']
Don't need much stage volume with good dispersion, the problem with those cabs is that they get turned up too loud because the audibility is poor off axis. The not having ears in knees syndrome.
[/quote]

I don't need much stage volume anyway. I've done gigs with an amp many a time and just used a Sansamp and the monitors. No problem.

4x10 on a table then? Surely that helps.

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[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1343833832' post='1755992']
Six pages in less than 24 hours. Woah. Obviously a contentious area.

Let's compare the high end products available.

Bergantino HD410, (similar in many ways to the HS410) (£875.00)

VS

Barefaced Super 12 (Around £865.00 for the Vintage Cloth version incl. the current neo surcharge)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is it about the Super 12 that outranks it over Jim's 4x10?

Similar prices, both aiming at the high end boutique side of the market.
[/quote]

[quote]
Model HD410 specifications: [list=1]
[*]
[size=3]•[/size]4 x 10" woofers with vented pole pieces
[*]
[size=3]•[/size]high intelligibility 1" tweeter
[*]
[size=3]•[/size]custom phase - coherent crossover with tweeter and level control
[*]
[size=3]•[/size]HD stands for "High Definition", which means these cabs are very efficient at converting watts into volume!
[*]
[size=3]•[/size]power handling - 800 watts rms
[*]
[size=3]•[/size]sensitivity: 104db 1 watt/1 meter
[*]
[size=3]•[/size]2 x 1/4" and 2 x neutrik connectors
[*]
[size=3]•[/size]impedance: 4 ohms
[*]
[size=3]•[/size]frequency response: 44hz-15khz
[*]
[size=3]•[/size]dimensions:
[*]
[size=3]•[/size]22" W x 26" H x 15" D - 56cm x 66cm x 38cm
[*]
[size=3]•[/size]weight: 88lbs/39.9Kgs
[*]
[size=3]•[/size]Optional fit casters included.
[*]
[size=3]•[/size]Padded/fitted cover £70
[*]
[color=#0145FA][size=3]•[/size][/color]UK mainland delivery from £15
[*]
[color=#0145FA][size=3]•[/size][/color]EU mainland delivery from POA
[*]
[color=#0145FA][size=3]•[/size][/color]This cab works well with high power amplifiers from 500 - 1000w at 4Ω
[/list]
[/quote]

[quote]
Dimensions
30" H x 19.5" W x 13.5" D
76cm x 48cm x 34cm Weight
40lbs/18kg (Super Twelve)
42lbs/19kg (Super Twelve T) Broadband Sensitivity 102dB - louder than many 4x10" cabs USABLE Frequency RANGE
37Hz - 4kHz
37Hz - 22kHz (T) Recommended Amp Power 150-1200W RMS Max CONTINOUS BROADBAND SPL 130dB - Louder than most 4x10"s and many 4x12"s Nominal Impedance 4 ohms
[/quote]

Weight and dispersion go to the S12, sensitivity isn't comparable because no indication of freq range, S12 wins on freq range.

This statement stands out:

[quote]
HD stands for "High Definition", which means these cabs are very efficient at converting watts into volume!
[/quote]

How does it mean that?

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[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1343834211' post='1756001']
I don't need much stage volume anyway. I've done gigs with an amp many a time and just used a Sansamp and the monitors. No problem.

4x10 on a table then? Surely that helps.
[/quote]

2x10 if you don't need much stage volume. 1x12 even.

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[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1343828730' post='1755885']
A cab with better polar response will work better in less ideal positions than a cab with poor polar response.
[/quote]

Didn't say it wouldn't.

[QUOTE]
Funnily enough, look what I wrote a few hours ago:
[/QUOTE]

So you did, I must have missed it in all the excitement.

[QUOTE]
Using science and engineering to design better loudspeakers isn't about trying to make some theoretically 'ideal' (WTF would what be anyway?) bass cab, or making something that sounds good in theory but not in practice (HTF do you manage that unless you're some hack who doesn't really have a clue what the scientific method entails?) This isn't some kind of pure maths style playing around with ethereal bollocks, it's actually looking at the REALITY of gigging and using engineering to design cabs that perform better in the REAL WORLD, not in a guitar shop or in someone's bedroom. A cab that you know you can trust to sound as good as possible when the stage layout isn't great, when the room acoustics are poor, when you don't have time to soundcheck properly, when the guitarist or drummer play too loud so you end up pushing it really hard.

f*** theory, this is about PLAYING REAL GIGS!
[/quote]

Again, I agree... but I still maintain that the majority of people out there still don't care. If we did, and felt that the improvement was worthwhile the investment, we all would be playing <INSERT SUPER CAB MANUFACTURER HERE> cabs. Just how much better is one cab over another at a gig... really...?

Edited by EBS_freak

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This discussion is getting rather humorous. I'm at work until 10 & I've got my popcorn. :D

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[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1343806611' post='1755368']
Nope, but our understanding of speakers has moved on from what it was in the 60s. :)
[/quote]

So we couldn't hear the difference in the 60s because we didn't have the understanding? :P

I'm not saying that what experts like Bill and Alex talk about isn't true (I respect their posts and trust them) but it makes such a small difference once you've taken into account all the factors that 99% of people aren't even aware of it and the majority of that 1% isn't bothered by it. If it was a serious concern and something that should be taken into account when buying, it'd be a much bigger deal.

Just for the record, I went from two 210RBH cabs to two 410RBHs and never noticed a difference. Maybe I would've done if I'd specifically listened for it or directly compared them (I didn't own them at the same time) but I've certainly never thought "bloody hell, this cab goes really quiet/sounds totally different when I stand here" with my 410RBH and I've used my wireless with that and gone into the audience at various gigs ranging from the amp being on the floor to being at head height (for the audience).

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[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' timestamp='1343835490' post='1756038']
So we couldn't hear the difference in the 60s because we didn't have the understanding? :P

I'm not saying that what experts like Bill and Alex talk about isn't true (I respect their posts and trust them) but it makes such a small difference once you've taken into account all the factors that 99% of people aren't even aware of it and the majority of that 1% isn't bothered by it. If it was a serious concern and something that should be taken into account when buying, it'd be a much bigger deal.

Just for the record, I went from two 210RBH cabs to two 410RBHs and never noticed a difference. Maybe I would've done if I'd specifically listened for it or directly compared them (I didn't own them at the same time) but I've certainly never thought "bloody hell, this cab goes really quiet/sounds totally different when I stand here" with my 410RBH and I've used my wireless with that and gone into the audience at various gigs ranging from the amp being on the floor to being at head height (for the audience).
[/quote]

You liar. :P

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[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' timestamp='1343835490' post='1756038']
So we couldn't hear the difference in the 60s because we didn't have the understanding? :P

I'm not saying that what experts like Bill and Alex talk about isn't true (I respect their posts and trust them) but it makes such a small difference once you've taken into account all the factors that 99% of people aren't even aware of it and the majority of that 1% isn't bothered by it. If it was a serious concern and something that should be taken into account when buying, it'd be a much bigger deal.

Just for the record, I went from two 210RBH cabs to two 410RBHs and never noticed a difference. Maybe I would've done if I'd specifically listened for it or directly compared them (I didn't own them at the same time) but I've certainly never thought "bloody hell, this cab goes really quiet/sounds totally different when I stand here" with my 410RBH and I've used my wireless with that and gone into the audience at various gigs ranging from the amp being on the floor to being at head height (for the audience).
[/quote]

You've never been to a gig with bad sound, between the 60s and now?

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Here is another thing to add to the thread. When testing the Compact at a gig, (early version, but same 'spec' im guessing) why could I not hear myself? The band said 'well, there is bass and we can feel it, but we can't hear it'. I didn't like the amp, I admit, an Ampeg Pro 3 which wasn't mine, but the mids were boosted. I am quite heavy on mids if necessary, but we couldn't hear the bass notes. Just felt bass.

Discuss! I am happy to be wrong, but I want to know exactly why!

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For those of you that don't think this stuff matters enough to be worth caring about when choosing a cab (or indeed designing one), what the hell are you doing wasting your time on a forum about bass amps?! ;)

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[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1343835765' post='1756046']
You've never been to a gig with bad sound, between the 60s and now?
[/quote]

I have, plenty of times, usually its because the band have a poor sound guy, or a rubbish PA. Then all I can hear is snare and guitar.

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[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1343835971' post='1756054']
For those of you that don't think this stuff matters enough to be worth caring about when choosing a cab (or indeed designing one), what the hell are you doing wasting your time on a forum about bass amps?! ;)
[/quote]

Original thread idea was discussing why a cheaper 4x10 still does the job.

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[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1343835950' post='1756052']Here is another thing to add to the thread. When testing the Compact at a gig, (early version, but same 'spec' im guessing) why could I not hear myself? The band said 'well, there is bass and we can feel it, but we can't hear it'. I didn't like the amp, I admit, an Ampeg Pro 3 which wasn't mine, but the mids were boosted. I am quite heavy on mids if necessary, but we couldn't hear the bass notes. Just felt bass.

Discuss! I am happy to be wrong, but I want to know exactly why![/quote]

I've told you a thousand times why. The amp wasn't powerful enough for your band, the tone of the amp and cab and your bass and your playing wasn't suitable for your band (bear in mind you said you were going to use it with a different and more powerful and less muddy amp but then didn't) and the only output that was loud enough to cut through the mix was down at the bottom. If you use an amp you don't like with one of our cabs then the cab is only going to show off why you don't like it! And if it's not very powerful then it's going to be even worse because you'll only hear the bits that are out of the range of the other instruments, i.e. below the guitars and in between kick drum hits.

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[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1343835971' post='1756054']
For those of you that don't think this stuff matters enough to be worth caring about when choosing a cab (or indeed designing one), what the hell are you doing wasting your time on a forum about bass amps?! ;)
[/quote]

Anyway, I think it's about that time we should sum up the thread -

"What's the big problem with 4x10?!"

Answer? The simple fact is there is nothing wrong with a 4x10. It's just that a cab engineered for better dispersion will have better dispersion.

That's pretty much it.

Edited by EBS_freak

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[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1343836179' post='1756061']
I've told you a thousand times why. The amp wasn't powerful enough for your band, the tone of the amp and cab and your bass and your playing wasn't suitable for your band (bear in mind you said you were going to use it with a different and more powerful and less muddy amp but then didn't) and the only output that was loud enough to cut through the mix was down at the bottom. If you use an amp you don't like with one of our cabs then the cab is only going to show off why you don't like it! And if it's not very powerful then it's going to be even worse because you'll only hear the bits that are out of the range of the other instruments, i.e. below the guitars and in between kick drum hits.
[/quote]

Make that a thousand and one now!

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[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1343836095' post='1756060']Original thread idea was discussing why a cheaper 4x10 still does the job.[/quote]

I used a Fiat Panda hire car on holiday. It did the job (and was quite fun in a comedy little car way). I wouldn't want to drive it every day (and my current car is a 100k+ Honda Civic so it's not exactly posh). I'd be perfectly happy moving an Ashdown 4x10" around though the tone would drive me mad. But if you like it then use it. What's the problem with that?

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[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1343836451' post='1756071']
(and my current car is a 100k+ Honda Civic so it's not exactly posh).[/quote]

That's must have some pricey ricer mods for 100k+... ;)

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[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1343835765' post='1756046']
You've never been to a gig with bad sound, between the 60s and now?
[/quote]

Tens, maybe hundreds. That's usually to do with the sound engineer though, or sometimes crap gear. I've never ever stood in front of the stage and thought "if I move from here to there, the change in sound from the bass amp ruins the overall sound".

Alex, IMO alignment of the speakers is like what material the body of a bass is made from. I'm sure it does affect the sound on some level, but it's such a minor factor compared to everything else, it's not something worth considering unless the other option is flipping a coin. A bass amp you like will sound nice whatever configuration the speakers are. One you don't like isn't going to sound nice just because you make it a 210 instead of a 410.

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[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1343836179' post='1756061']
I've told you a thousand times why. The amp wasn't powerful enough for your band, the tone of the amp and cab and your bass and your playing wasn't suitable for your band (bear in mind you said you were going to use it with a different and more powerful and less muddy amp but then didn't) and the only output that was loud enough to cut through the mix was down at the bottom. If you use an amp you don't like with one of our cabs then the cab is only going to show off why you don't like it! And if it's not very powerful then it's going to be even worse because you'll only hear the bits that are out of the range of the other instruments, i.e. below the guitars and in between kick drum hits.
[/quote]

My playing and my bass?! The same bass and style of playing I used in the same band for years?! That's not the issue. The headlining band swapped to an Ampeg 410, (not the HLF, the sealed version) and the punch came back, with the same amp, albeit not me on bass obviously. The amp should be more than enough for a small gig with PA support, so the power of the amp isn't much of a problem once you max the gain (a known issue with the amp) and just push it.

There were a few bass players at the gig waiting to hear what the cab sounded like, as I told them it was super light and a new design for bassists, but even when I was twiddling with the amp and getting a tone, without a guitar or drummer playing, they still said it had a lot of low end, but no clarity.

Again, I realise the amp isn't the best, but plenty of people use them. My technique and bass were not an issue (at that time, MIJ P Bass, steel strings, plectrum). I USED to be obsessed with clangy bright strings, not so much now, but at that gig, the strings were super bright.

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[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1343820416' post='1755661']
Excellent post! There are so many other variables in a live situation as to make such discussion ******* retentive at best. Depending on what level you're playing at the bass will also be affected by whether the venue is a "barn", the shape of it (how many pubs have the band using an L shaped room?) and often incredibly important how many punters are in.
At the top levels I stopped going to gigs at either Glasgow's SECC or Manchester's MEN arena because the sound was unbelievable crap, the only thing going for the gig was to say "I was there" (Though I didn't even want to admit that when one of them was East 17).
I was at a gig last year which was in a tall long venue, there was no talk of speaker size, cab shape etc or whether the bassist should switch his Ampeg for his Marshall. First question asked was "How many tickets are sold?" & then jokingly "Try to get the tallest ones to stand at the front, too bad the small guys can't see at the back".
There's a lot to be said - stating the obvious - that you're better to start by getting the best sound that you can, but letting theory dictate it completely is missing the mark completely.
[/quote]
Totally agree with this. I've been regularly gigging now for over fifty years. I turn up, switch it on, plug it in and tweak a bit to tailor to the room acoustics. Job done! There's nothing like the Mark 1 earhole... (I now use 1 x 15" having previously used 2 x 12". The only time I've ever used 10"s have been at festivals where the rig was provided)

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[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1343836699' post='1756082']My playing and my bass?! The same bass and style of playing I used in the same band for years?![/quote]

The COMBINATION of your playing, your bass, the amp and the cab. And the strings come to that. That's why every time you email me asking if you can have a Compact for cheap, I email you back asking a whole bunch of questions like this:

"What amp do you use? What cab(s) do you currently use? What do/don't you like about them? What music do you usually play? What kind of bass sounds are you into (links to youtube etc clips helpful)? What bass(es) do you play? What strings do you use and how new/old do you like them? What kind of gigs do you usually play?"

It is all interactive! Last year someone persuaded me to sell them a Compact even though I said it was the wrong choice - and it came back. Nowadays people get the cab (or one of the cabs) that I say will suit or they don't get anything. There's no way I'd have suggested you gig with an SVT3 and a Compact doing the music you were doing back then, no way!

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[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' timestamp='1343836629' post='1756078']
Tens, maybe hundreds. That's usually to do with the sound engineer though, or sometimes crap gear. I've never ever stood in front of the stage and thought "if I move from here to there, the change in sound from the bass amp ruins the overall sound".
[/quote]

Crap gear like gear that sounds bad from where you are standing? Obviously as demonstrated above, that can be the fault of the bassist for not knowing how to use it, but equally it can be down to it sounding totally fine from where the bassist is.

Edited by Mr. Foxen

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