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Musicman20

What's the big problem with 4x10s?!

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[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1343900265' post='1756918']
Quite. I don't worry about dispersion at gigs. I worry about remembering my lines and trying not to look like a tit.
[/quote]

I gave up on what you worry about & I just accept it. :(

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[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1343899741' post='1756911']
Lol. Post of the thread...!!!

Some posts here speaks volumes tho...... Very illuminating, and no, I am not talking about the 'science'. Lol lol lol
[/quote]

What amazes me is that there is now 10 pages of posts about 'speaker dispertion'. Geez...c'mon!?!?

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[quote name='shizznit' timestamp='1343901622' post='1756960']
What amazes me is that there is now 10 pages of posts about 'speaker dispertion'. Geez...c'mon!?!?
[/quote]

This is the amps and cabs forum, the point of an amp and cab is to disperse sound coming from your bass into the wider world, so how good something is at doing it is kind of important. The effects forum is better placed for stuff used just to change the sound coming from a bass.

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[quote name='shizznit' timestamp='1343901622' post='1756960']
What amazes me is that there is now 10 pages of posts about 'speaker dispertion'. Geez...c'mon!?!?
[/quote]

Oh I dunno, I'm enjoying seeing how many times people can be so egocentric as to be totally capable of missing the entire reason why most of us are on BC. I know some PC geeks who are more socially aware.

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[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1343902571' post='1756980']
Oh I dunno, I'm enjoying seeing how many times people can be so egocentric as to be totally capable of missing the entire reason why most of us are on BC. I know some PC geeks who are more socially aware.
[/quote]

That's usually because they've saw sense & bought a Mac! :yarr:

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[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1343901968' post='1756966']
This is the amps and cabs forum, the point of an amp and cab is to disperse sound coming from your bass into the wider world, so how good something is at doing it is kind of important. The effects forum is better placed for stuff used just to change the sound coming from a bass.
[/quote]

Not disputing that at all and I do agree with you. This is an open forum and folks have the freedom to talk about whatever they like. God bless you all! But, I am stepping out of this one and popping down to the pub!

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[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1343903256' post='1756997']
That's usually because they've saw sense & bought a Mac! :yarr:
[/quote]

Hmm, cunning! a ploy to get another 11 pages going on PC or Mac debate? :ph34r: <_<

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[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1343903398' post='1757000']
Hmm, cunning! a ploy to get another 11 pages going on PC or Mac debate? :ph34r: <_<
[/quote]

I could have gotten away with it too! :lol:

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How many of you actually take a wander around the venue during sound checks and gigs to check out the sound I wonder. I'm wireless and do the sound for the band so do this all the time. I love my 8x10, there's nothing I don't like about it when I'm standing in front of it playing, fantastic sound but the sound out front is not what I hear on stage.

I used a pair of Jack 15s for a few gigs and was amazed at how different the sound was. I managed to get my sound on stage easy enough but it was as I was wandering around the venue that I noticed that the sound that I was hearing on stage was following me. The top end which inevitably disappeared, especially when the place was full, was still there. Quite an eye opener, or is that ear opener. The things that Alex and Bill had been saying was there for me to hear and it wasn't just out front that the difference was noticed, the rest of the band commented that they'd actually heard what I was playing for the first time which upset me a bit as I thought that they already appreciated my brilliance.

This is only my experience and opinion but at least I've heard a difference which backs up the science.

This post was written on my Macbook Pro if you're interested.

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[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1343775095' post='1755218']
But most of us don't. [b]By placing two tens side by side the midrange dispersion is less than that of a 1x15, or vertically aligned 2x15s. Tens naturally have the widest dispersion of the usual driver sizes, but only if kept in a vertical line. [/b]Want the tone and output of a 4x10 with wide dispersion so that the audience can hear them, and with the drivers high enough so that you can hear them? Stack two 2x10s vertically.
[/quote]

This confuses me. Is the only thing that can cause this proximity to the stage floor or is it some new fangled physics I haven't heard about.

And isn't an 8x10 just a two pairs of vertically stacked 2x10's?

Edited by Mog

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[quote name='bertbass' timestamp='1343904567' post='1757028']
I used a pair of Jack 15s for a few gigs and was amazed at how different the sound was... ...I noticed that the sound that I was hearing on stage was following me. The top end which inevitably disappeared, especially when the place was full, was still there. Quite an eye opener, or is that ear opener. The things that Alex and Bill had been saying was there for me to hear and it wasn't just out front that the difference was noticed, the rest of the band commented that they'd actually heard what I was playing for the first time....[/quote]

I had exactly the same experience with my BFM Jack 12. Those Jacks do chuck it out, and it goes everywhere! :D

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[quote name='bertbass' timestamp='1343904567' post='1757028']This is only my experience and opinion but at least I've heard a difference which backs up the science.[/quote]

+ lots
In fact it doesn't take much experimenting to verify the science. Those who care will investigate, those who don't will ignore it.

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[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1343905615' post='1757059']
I had exactly the same experience with my BFM Jack 12. Those Jacks do chuck it out, and it goes everywhere! :D
[/quote]

Same here as well. Two Jack 15's for me. Sounds the same across the stage and I don't have to be as loud (subjective term obviously!) as I did before. Very rarely get chance to have a wander as bertbass says, but I can tell the difference on stage at least.

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[quote name='Mog' timestamp='1343905577' post='1757057'] This confuses me. Is the only thing that can cause this proximity to the stage floor or is it some new fangled physics I haven't heard about. And isn't an 8x10 just a two pairs of vertically stacked 2x10's? [/quote]

It's all to do with the soundwaves of each driver pushing against one another.

You'd have the same result if you stacked 4 2x10s in the same config as an 8x10.

Here's something from an AV site that explains a bit about surround sound systems. Same logic applies.



Here's the site...

http://info.atlantictechnology.com/bid/127601/Vertical-Center-Channel-Speaker-Placement

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The thing is you don't want the bass to go everywhere on a controlled stage as it is a bugger to get rid off if it bleeds into other signals. That is a stage monitoring PITA.

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[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1343907417' post='1757101']
The thing is you don't want the bass to go everywhere on a controlled stage as it is a bugger to get rid off if it bleeds into other signals. [/quote]

True - but Jacks don't produce a real arse-shattering sub-type bass, though. More like a very tight low/low mid thing going on. They have really excellent mid and high-mid projection, too. Whether this is to do with the rear-loading horn design, I don't know.

Edited by discreet

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We very rarely have FOH, only once this year so far, so the only thing going through the PA normally is vocals so the back line provides the sound. Being somewhat old school, this is the way that we learned our trade and a situation we are more than happy with. If we have to use provided PA support then we're not normally happy. The sound man does not know the band or the songs and very rarely gets an out front sound that we or people who know the band are happy with. If the bass does not have a lot of FOH support then I couldn't be happier as I know that at least the bass will sound good.

For monitoring all we require is just our 3 vocals at the same level through all 3 monitors, is that too much to ask, apparently it is. For instrument monitoring we just hear each other on stage as normal.

If you're talking about bleed into the mics, the the bass is DIed, the AC30 is close miced and the drums, well he's a drummer and all he wants is something that sounds like drums, well actually like dustbins. If it was good enough for keif Moon, it's good enough for me and it's Premier.

Isn't it strange that if the sound man does manage to get a reasonable sound out front during a sound check how it suddenly changes to rubbish during the gig.

Sounds like a bit of a rant this so apologies if it does.

Also written on my Macbook Pro.

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[quote name='Mog' timestamp='1343905577' post='1757057']
This confuses me. Is the only thing that can cause this proximity to the stage floor or is it some new fangled physics I haven't heard about.
[/quote]The physics of dispersion by a sound source were quantified in the 1930s.
[quote]The thing is you don't want the bass to go everywhere on a controlled stage as it is a bugger to get rid off if it bleeds into other signals.[/quote]The low frequencies [i]always [/i]go everywhere. Below roughly 250Hz the radiation pattern of a typical bass cab is 360 degrees. Above that dispersion progressively narrows as the wavelengths become shorter. The wider the source the greater the disparity between low frequency and high frequency dispersion. That disparity is minimized by keeping the source as narrow as possible. Contrary to popular belief this is why midrange drivers are smaller than woofers, and tweeters are smaller than midranges. As the operating range of drivers goes higher in frequency the size of the drivers is reduced not for the purpose of extending the operating range of the driver higher in frequency but rather to counteract the narrowing of the system angle of radiation with increasing frequency.
[quote]True - but Jacks don't produce a real arse-shattering sub-type bass, though.[/quote]Jacks produce at least as much low end as direct radiating cabs using the same drivers. Where they differ is that they produce stronger mids. And they're not rear-loaded horns, they're front loaded horns.
[quote]Isn't it strange that if the sound man does manage to get a reasonable sound out front during a sound check how it suddenly changes to rubbish during the gig.[/quote]The room acoustics are totally different when the room is empty versus full with an audience.
[quote]For instrument monitoring we just hear each other on stage as normal.[/quote]That's even more of a challenge than having uniform sound in the audience, as the cone shaped midrange and high frequency dispersion pattern is much smaller close to the amps. With a typical stage setup the mids and highs from amps can only be heard directly in front of them. Only by running the instuments through the monitors may what's heard on stage be as close as possible to what's heard out front. Since the low frequencies as noted are omni-directional there's no need to have them in the monitors, so the instrument feeds to the monitors should be high-passed.

Edited by Bill Fitzmaurice

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This thread has proved beyond all doubt that I know absolutely nothing whatsoever about cabs, drivers, dispersion, maths, physics, acoustics, psychoacoustics, sound properties and characteristics, or bloody [i]any [/i]of it! Which must be extremely frustrating for the people on here who really know their stuff.

I am reminded of this quotation from Matthew 7:6 - 'Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet and turn and tear you in pieces.'

Edited by discreet

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[b][i]The room acoustics are totally different when the room is empty versus full with an audience.[/i][/b]

Shouldn't a good sound engineer adjust for this though. If I'm doing sound I'm constantly listening and making the sound as good as possible not sitting with my feet up chatting to anyone that will listen ignoring what's going on around them or going for a pint.

[b][i][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Only by running the instuments through the monitors may what's heard on stage be as close as possible to what's heard out front.[/font][/color][/i][/b]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]I said before that trying to get just 3 vocals right in the monitors seems to be impossible let alone a full band. No, I'm quite happy to hear the sound on stage the way I like it and not somebody elses idea of a good mix. I've been in the position where the guys supplying the sound kept turning my amp down so that in the end all I could hear was a muffled bassy rumble in the distance and that was only when the others stopped playing. I spent the whole gig not hearing what I was playing.[/font][/color]

[i][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Again written on my Macbook Pro,[/font][/color][/i]

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[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1343907340' post='1757098']
It's all to do with the soundwaves of each driver pushing against one another.

You'd have the same result if you stacked 4 2x10s in the same config as an 8x10.

Here's something from an AV site that explains a bit about surround sound systems. Same logic applies.



Here's the site...

[url="http://info.atlantictechnology.com/bid/127601/Vertical-Center-Channel-Speaker-Placement"]http://info.atlantic...eaker-Placement[/url]
[/quote]

Cheers lad. That actually displays exactly what I have a problem understanding. The thing is, sound is emitted from a source on more than one axis, ie.the vertical as well as the horizontal.

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1343911731' post='1757197']
The physics of dispersion by a sound source were quantified in the 1930s.[/quote]
:drinks:

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[quote name='Mog' timestamp='1343918879' post='1757328']
The thing is, sound is emitted from a source on more than one axis, ie.the vertical as well as the horizontal.[/quote]

At the risk of exposing my ignorance, I don't think the vertical axis is as important, as your ears are on the horizontal axis...
or something... :D

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[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1343919052' post='1757334']
At the risk of exposing my ignorance, I don't think the vertical axis is as important, as your ears are on the horizontal axis...
or something... :D
[/quote]

The reason that horizontal axis is considered more important is that the audience's heads (i.e. ears) are fairly close together in height. They're spread very widely horizontally though.

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