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Ben Jamin
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Firstly If I remember correctly didn't a similar thread to this cause people to actually leave BC before and it was then locked?

Secondly I wrote my dissertation on new media economics, specifically looking at whether illegal downloads actually hurt musicians.

The simple answer is no, they don't, in fact most labels are actually making the same amount of money as they always were but from new income streams. The bean counters that run the labels see the numbers for CD sales falling and want to recoup it rather than assess a big picture.

Bands can now make far more money from touring, festivals, live DVD releases, TV shows, radio play (including internet radio), video games, mobile phone apps, merchandise etc, most of which did not exist 20 years ago before downloading.

I admit I downloaded almost everything on my iPhone, however I can say with my hand on my heart with the exception of dead artists I have seen 95% of them live at least once, the majority I have bought a t-shirt from (official merch) and quite a few I have paid to download their songs into rock band or guitar hero. I have played many video games with their songs on, watched live streams from (supported by ads!) and so on.

I also do still buy a large number of CD's from bands who I discover in depth by downloading in the first place.

For example about 3 years ago I discovered The Gaslight Anthem, who are still my favourite band today, I heard one song, went online and torrented their whole back catalogue in 5 minutes. Listened to it religiously and since that day have seen them live 4 times, bought 4 of their CD's, own 5 official t shirts and will pay to see them on their next tour.

Without that illegal download, I would never of bothered.

Edited by throwoff
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[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1340178355' post='1700271']
Fer cryin' out loud...

If someone has created something, quite possibily at significant expense, and they specifically ask you to pay to watch / listen to it, then just bliddy well pay for it!

Don't say it's difficult to do so, because it isn't. You're making excuses. My six-year-old daughter can do it. What a bunch of tight-arsed chancers.

I appreciate that it's also easy to download this stuff illegally. Crack on if you must, don't whinge and whine when the copyright owners try and stop you.
[/quote]

I can't believe people defend it. I don't give a sh*t what someone wants to call it, but if some music has a price, and some f***er takes it without paying for it, then that is depriving the people who created the music of some income. In my book, it is called being a c*nt.

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[quote name='throwoff' timestamp='1340182277' post='1700358']
Firstly If I remember correctly didn't a similar thread to this cause people to actually leave BC before and it was then locked?

Secondly I wrote my dissertation on new media economics, specifically looking at whether illegal downloads actually hurt musicians.

The simple answer is no, they don't, in fact most labels are actually making the same amount of money as they always were but from new income streams. The bean counters that run the labels see the numbers for CD sales falling and want to recoup it rather than assess a big picture.

Bands can now make far more money from touring, festivals, live DVD releases, TV shows, radio play (including internet radio), video games, mobile phone apps, merchandise etc, most of which did not exist 20 years ago before downloading.

I admit I downloaded almost everything on my iPhone, however I can say with my hand on my heart with the exception of dead artists I have seen 95% of them live at least once, the majority I have bought a t-shirt from (official merch) and quite a few I have paid to download their songs into rock band or guitar hero. I have played many video games with their songs on, watched live streams from (supported by ads!) and so on.

I also do still buy a large number of CD's from bands who I discover in depth by downloading in the first place.

For example about 3 years ago I discovered The Gaslight Anthem, who are still my favourite band today, I heard one song, went online and torrented their whole back catalogue in 5 minutes. Listened to it religiously and since that day have seen them live 4 times, bought 4 of their CD's, own 5 official t shirts and will pay to see them on their next tour.

Without that illegal download, I would never of bothered.
[/quote]

Brilliant, glad this arrived in the debate - much better than I could have articulated, as I'm lacking familiarity with the market.

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[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1340181595' post='1700329']

What happens when iTunes closes down and your hard drive goes skyward ? What exactly will you own? You will have basically paid for the temporary use of something.

Besides that IIRC the downloading is not actually illegal in the UK.
[/quote]

If your iTunes application fails to open for some reason then you'll still have all your music files in the iTunes music folder. Music > iTunes > iTunes Media > Music (or something like that). If your hard drive packs up then unfortunately that's your problem really.

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[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1340181811' post='1700337']
Digressing slightly - in its early days, BBC Radio was obliged to broadcast a certain percentage of live music (thanks to the Musicians' Union) to ensure that performing musicians could make a living. This was called the 'Needle Time' restriction.

Bring back the Needle Time restriction! And the birch. And hanging. :D
[/quote]

A variation of the needle time restriction still exists. Unfortunately all it means now is that there is more space between the records filled up with mindless DJ drivel.

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[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1340182314' post='1700361']
I can't believe people defend it. I don't give a sh*t what someone wants to call it, but if some music has a price, and some f***er takes it without paying for it, then that is depriving the people who created the music of some income.
[/quote]

So, if someone illegally downloads one song by an artist, and then on the back of that goes and buys three cds, a concert ticket, and a tshirt, then the artist has been deprived of income? Please.

Did you believe that home taping was killing music too?

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[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1340181595' post='1700329']
What happens when iTunes closes down and your hard drive goes skyward ? What exactly will you own? You will have basically paid for the temporary use of something.
[/quote]

If you haven't made a backup of the contents of your iTunes music library then you only have yourself to blame.

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Like the majestic brown bear at the eddy watching the salmon, the modern music comsumer is overtaken with a feeding frenzy on ickle MP3's jumping upstream to spawn. It doesn't take what it needs, it is driven into a bloodlust to attack all it sees and kill hundreds of fish whilst actually only consuming a few fish... that is to say it's not true that people will only download what they really want or need. If left unchecked, consumers will amass gig upon gig of data that they'll never use or appreciate.

Like the salmon, the musician won't stop swimming against the stream when the time is right, driven by a primordal desire to procreate.

This thoroughly modern problem can only be solved by changing how music is consumed. As somebody mentioned earlier the genie isn't about to go back in the bottle. Platforms such as spotify, whilst not perfect, seem like the only way forward at the moment, with an option to pay for a physical copy as an afterthought. Casual consumers paying for their product through advertising, and larger consumers paying a small premium. This facilitates a shift weighted more in favour of mechanical copywrite and less to publishing rights if the professional musician is to remain solvent. It's often said music is in a constant state of flux but this situation arose because of the business side of the music industry dragging it's heels over the information age.

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[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1340182013' post='1700347']
Band not yet signed.

Release stuff on the internet.

It goes Viral.

Bingo ticket sales go up .

Would that have hurt them?
[/quote]

If they're unsigned and they released the music then fine. That's a great to get out there.
If they're signed to label and are charging for the music, sure it'd help with publicity, but still not cool. If you can justify downloading illegally on the basis that it might just help an artist go viral then you can justify downloading anything illegally. It'd be better on the whole if illegal downloading didn't happen.

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Spotify is indeed an interesting example.

If I download a song and store it on my hard drive then a lot of people will say I've stolen that song.

But if I listen to that same song by streaming it (i.e. downloading without storing it) then it seems to be OK.

In these days of mobile comms and on-demand streaming, what is the practical difference between these two scenarios? None!

Like it or not, music IS freely accessible these days and perfectly legal if you use services like Spotify or YouTube.

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Anyway, I'm leaving this discussion. Its getting ugly and people are reading what they want to read, not whats actually been written.

For the record:

1. I firmly believe in supporting artists and musicians (and I do, at every opportunity)
2. I believe that in many cases piracy is both legally and ethically wrong and cannot be justified
3. I [i]also[/i] believe that in many cases, piracy can actually be a good thing for artists and musicians.

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[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1340182559' post='1700373']
So, if someone illegally downloads one song by an artist, and then on the back of that goes and buys three cds, a concert ticket, and a tshirt, then the artist has been deprived of income? Please.

Did you believe that home taping was killing music too?
[/quote]

You know very well you do not need to illegally download one song by an artist as a tester. You hear it on the radio, on youtube, your mates ...

You also know that we are taking about people who systematically and illegally make music available for free when it was intended to be paid for, and about those who take advantage of such nefarious offerings.

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[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1340182314' post='1700361']
I can't believe people defend it. I don't give a sh*t what someone wants to call it, but if some music has a price, and some f***er takes it without paying for it, then that is depriving the people who created the music of some income. In my book, it is called being a c*nt.
[/quote]
If nobody would ever hear it without 'illegal' distribution then nobody would buy it.


Even if 10% of downloaders go on to buy something then 10% of something is more than 100% of nothing.

My band only rarely got played on the radio. There were not many copies of our vinyls or CDs in circulation anyway.
The original audience had grown up so their mates are hardly going to wnat to listen to us.

But tens of thousands of plays on youtube among other things got us exposure and now we sell everything we can press.

Edited by Twigman
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[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1340183144' post='1700397']
If I download a song and store it on my hard drive then a lot of people will say I've stolen that song.
But if I listen to that same song by streaming it (i.e. downloading without storing it) then it seems to be OK.[/quote]

You will have paid for the streamed songs... I believe Spotify costs money.

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[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1340183147' post='1700398']
Anyway, I'm leaving this discussion. Its getting ugly and people are reading what they want to read, not whats actually been written.

For the record:

1. I firmly believe in supporting artists and musicians (and I do, at every opportunity)
[b]2. I believe that in many cases piracy is both legally and ethically wrong and cannot be justified
3. I [i]also[/i] believe that in many cases, piracy can actually be a good thing for artists and musicians.[/b]
[/quote]

Basically then, you are saying nothing at all. You are leaving this discussion because you don't seem to be able to articulate any sound reasoning.

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[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1340182226' post='1700353']
Eh? I don't understand what point you're trying to make. I'm going to make this simple, because somehow people seem to have got confused.

[size=6]Sometimes, for some bands, piracy can have a positive effect. Sometimes, for other bands, piracy can have a negative effect. Arguing that piracy is a black/white issue is stupid. [/size]

That was all my point was in the first place. Somehow everyone got their knickers in a twist and assumed that "some piracy can be good" meant "all piracy is brilliant and you should all never pay for anything ever again".
[/quote]

IMO you are confusing piracy with some music being given away for free out of choice.

It's up to each band and/or record company to decide whether or not that they give (some of) their music away for free or charge for it. If it's being given away free by all means take it. If it's not free don't take it just because some other music is.

Also if you want to listen to a band there are plenty of legal places on the internet where you can do so (we'll leave aside the piss-poor royalty rates these sites pay for now). There is no need to grab an unauthorised download. Therefore the argument about downloading for trying before buying falls flat. My music tastes are pretty eclectic, but I've never needed to obtain a dodgy copy of a band's work in order to find out whether or not I'm going to like them.

My band give some of our tracks away for free and we expect you to pay for others. That's our choice. If you don't like it, then you can probably find plenty of others playing music in a similar style who are giving away all their songs for free. However if you think that my band has that something extra special that other bands have wouldn't you want to pay for the music if that's what was being asked of you?

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The only things I have ever downloaded for free are 2 or 3 albums that were not available on itunes, Amazon or any other on-line retailer (obscure jazz stuff that was deleted years ago and has never made it onto reissues). So I couldn't have paid for it even if I wanted to!

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[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1340182559' post='1700373']
So, if someone illegally downloads one song by an artist, and then on the back of that goes and buys three cds, a concert ticket, and a tshirt, then the artist has been deprived of income? Please.

[/quote]

I think we're in complete agreement. SOMETIMES piracy can benefit a band. But It shouldn't be the downloaders call as to whether to pay for it or not, it should be the artists.

You're right in as much as whether or not piracy benefits some bands is indeed not a black and white issue. But whether or not taking something for free that has an attached value (whether you agree with the attached value or not) against the artists will, is to me very much in a black and white sense, wrong.

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[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1340183528' post='1700407']
You will have paid for the streamed songs... I believe Spotify costs money.
[/quote]

I've not used it but I know a couple of people who do. I believe the basic service is free but they play the occasional adverts but if you pay £9.99 per month then it's ad-free.

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[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1340183762' post='1700417']
So, have I got this right?..

If I download a song illegally, i'm a ****, even if i've contributed to that artist's income in other ways

If I stream the same song legally, i'm a good guy.
[/quote]

Yes. That's correct :)

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