Stealing

[gjones]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1340140014' post='1699934']
If anything, the internet is forcing a return to the pre-recording days when the "value" in music was in live performance. A concert is something that can't be duplicated or downloaded. The live experience cannot be replicated. We should all embrace that and do as much as possible to ensure that everytime we do a gig we make it as good as possible so that people see the "value" in what we do and make them want to come back again and again.
[/quote]

It's the reason why bands are continually touring these days (and reforming in order to tour). They can't make any money from selling their music. It's a reversal of previous behavior when bands toured in order to promote their records, now they release records to promote their live act. I've been to so many live gigs in recent years because all my favorite bands are back on the road again.

[cheddatom]

Copyright infringement is not always morally wrong in my opinion. For example, if my friend makes me a mix-tape, that doesn't seem morally wrong to me.

Am i wrong?

[xilddx]

[quote name='Earbrass' timestamp='1340191696' post='1700634']
a rather patronizing assumption, don't you think?
[/quote]

Why is it?

[4000]

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1340189593' post='1700583']

We all have day jobs.
We probably break even these days.
Recording is far far far cheaper now than it was.
Back in the 80s you'd be lucky to get change from £20k when recording an album.
These days you can record an album for a fraction of that cost.
[/quote]

All absolutely true, but not necessarily helpful to the growth of an artist or the development of talent. How many classic albums would not have been made had the artist in question been working 10 hours a day at Tescos? Or if they had been made, how long would they have taken and what would the quality of the results been like? How many people who do a full-time job can either employ skilled sound engineers or afford to spend the time to learn Protools etc back to front, even assuming their ears are up to it? These days once I get home from work I hardly have the energy to pick my bass up, let alone come up with the next Dark Side of the Moon. Maybe that's just me.

On the subject of making your money from gigs, has anybody playing originals tried this recently? Lets just say I'd be on bread & water for the forseeable future...if that.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1340191853' post='1700644']
Copyright infringement is not always morally wrong in my opinion. For example, if my friend makes me a mix-tape, that doesn't seem morally wrong to me.

Am i wrong?
[/quote]

No but there's a difference between getting a single track from a band (in amongst a load of others) on a mix tape from a mate and downloading their entire recorded output because you're too cheap to pay for it.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1340191759' post='1700637']
No offense Nigel but that makes you sound like a pretentious twat.
[/quote]
Why? Most of us are hobbyists here, most of us are underdeveloped as musicians due to the pressures of working for a living and all the other sh*t we have to deal with. I suppose if one is on the old king cole the we get more time to practice and write.

[xilddx]

[quote name='4000' timestamp='1340192089' post='1700649']
All absolutely true, but not necessarily helpful to the growth of an artist or the development of talent. How many classic albums would not have been made had the artist in question been working 10 hours a day at Tescos? Or if they had been made, how long would they have taken and what would the quality of the results been like? How many people who do a full-time job can either employ skilled sound engineers or afford to spend the time to learn Protools etc back to front, even assuming their ears are up to it? These days once I get home from work I hardly have the energy to pick my bass up, let alone come up with the next Dark Side of the Moon. Maybe that's just me.

[b]On the subject of making your money from gigs, has anybody playing originals tried this recently? Lets just say I'd be on bread & water for the forseeable future...if that.[/b]
[/quote]
Me too. But we are in the age of the tribute act and the covers band, they are making the small time money now. They'll have f*** all worth covering in 15 years probably.

[xilddx]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1340192144' post='1700650']
No but there's a difference between getting a single track from a band (in amongst a load of others) on a mix tape from a mate and downloading their entire recorded output because you're too cheap to pay for it.
[/quote]
This is the real issue.

[Earbrass]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1340192003' post='1700647']
Why is it?
[/quote]

Please see my edited post above.
[quote name='Earbrass' timestamp='1340191696' post='1700634']

[/quote]

[xilddx]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1340192166' post='1700652']


Oh wait hold on it didn't and we are still hearing the same old bullshit trotted out.
[/quote]
BRX has already explained this tired old bullshit HTiKM argument further up.

[4000]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1340192154' post='1700651']

Why? Most of us are hobbyists here, most of us are underdeveloped as musicians due to the pressures of working for a living and all the other sh*t we have to deal with. I suppose if one is on the old king cole the we get more time to practice and write.
[/quote]

Ah, the dole. Happy days, long ago. As for the rest, yep, I certainly qualify.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Earbrass' timestamp='1340192404' post='1700661']
Please see my edited post above.
[/quote]
No, can't find it. Where is it?

[BigRedX]

[quote name='4000' timestamp='1340192089' post='1700649']
On the subject of making your money from gigs, has anybody playing originals tried this recently? Lets just say I'd be on bread & water for the forseeable future...if that.
[/quote]

Dick Venom & The Terrortones breaks even on a day-to day basis, in that the gigs we play and the merchandise we sell at them pays for our gigging and rehearsing expenses. However we still haven't recouped all of the initial outlay for recording and producing the merch, and we're a long way off being able to support all 4 band members at even subsistence level...

[Twigman]

[quote name='4000' timestamp='1340192089' post='1700649']
All absolutely true, but not necessarily helpful to the growth of an artist or the development of talent. How many classic albums would not have been made had the artist in question been working 10 hours a day at Tescos? Or if they had been made, how long would they have taken and what would the quality of the results been like? How many people who do a full-time job can either employ skilled sound engineers or afford to spend the time to learn Protools etc back to front, even assuming their ears are up to it? These days once I get home from work I hardly have the energy to pick my bass up, let alone come up with the next Dark Side of the Moon. Maybe that's just me.[/quote]
That may just be you....we're a 5 piece. three of us have home studios. One of us works full time in the music industry and owns his own record label. We all have quite senior roles for the companies that we work for. We still find time to write, rehearse and record our songs - yes it takes longer than it did in the 80s when we had fewer other commitments but we believe the quality is better now than it was.
[quote name='4000' timestamp='1340192089' post='1700649']
On the subject of making your money from gigs, has anybody playing originals tried this recently? Lets just say I'd be on bread & water for the forseeable future...if that.[/quote]
Every gig we play (albeit that's not many) we make a reasonable profit. We never play cover versions. Make of that what you will.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1340192144' post='1700650']
No but there's a difference between getting a single track from a band (in amongst a load of others) on a mix tape from a mate and downloading their entire recorded output because you're too cheap to pay for it.
[/quote]

Sure, there's a big difference.

Personally, I download music ilegally in the following scenarios:
The album is no longer available for purchase
I want to hear a song/band and the streaming options available are sh*t quality. (here I would download and listen, if I don't like it I delete it, if I do I buy it - I equate this to streaming media services and maybe i'm wrong to do that)

I feel quite comfortable with that but this debate is making me question myself.

Certainly if any of my bands' albums were ilegally downloaded it would cost me the price of the album, but then no-one has ever listened to my bands and we're not selling any anyway. The "free publicity" would be welcome.

[Conan]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1340149131' post='1700155']
I would have no problem downloading Elton John's whole back catalogue (if I could be arsed)...[/quote]

To lighten the mood slightly.

This is great. I just don't know where to start with this!

[xilddx]

[quote name='4000' timestamp='1340192463' post='1700663']
Ah, the dole. Happy days, long ago. As for the rest, yep, I certainly qualify.
[/quote]
Me too.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1340192166' post='1700652']


Oh wait hold on it didn't and we are still hearing the same old bullshit trotted out.
[/quote]

It didn't because it was too difficult and time consuming to do and if you wanted to do it on anything above a personal level. you need a shed load of expensive equipment.

Making a digital copy is a piece of piss by comparison.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1340191691' post='1700633']
Really ? any evidence that ticket and merch prices are linked to file sharing?

Artists get a small cut of they pie when it comes to Album sales I suggest if there is any inflated price it's not because of the artist losing out but record company execs losing out.
[/quote]
And what happens when the old bastards are too old to tour? Or get ill? Where's their income going to come from?

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1340192607' post='1700670']
That may just be you....we're a 5 piece. three of us have home studios. One of us works full time in the music industry and owns his own record label. We all have quite senior roles for the companies that we work for. We still find time to write, rehearse and record our songs - yes it takes longer than it did in the 80s when we had fewer other commitments but we believe the quality is better now than it was.

Every gig we play (albeit that's not many) we make a reasonable profit. We never play cover versions. Make of that what you will.
[/quote]

But as you keep conveniently ignoring when I point it out AFAICS your current musical activities are pretty much founded on what you did as a band back in the 80s when you had record company support and the kind of time and money put into the band that most of us these days can only dream about. You wouldn't be getting to play the gigs that you do and command the fees that you do without that legacy.

[Twigman]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1340192819' post='1700680']
And what happens when the old bastards are too old to tour? Or get ill? Where's their income going to come from?
[/quote]
Folk buying the catalogue. Those folk who are reached through the illegal distribution networks because the pluggers are no longer being paid to get the records on radio playlists..

Just because some DL illegally does not mean all do.
A downloaded album is probably not a 'lost sale' - those who DL everything the own from free sites probably would not pay for the music if the freebie option was not available.
If anything a downloaded album is a bit of free marketing which may result in somebody spending some money which most definitely would not have been spent without access to the free stuff.

[4000]

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1340192607' post='1700670']

That may just be you....we're a 5 piece. three of us have home studios. One of us works full time in the music industry and owns his own record label. We all have quite senior roles for the companies that we work for. We still find time to write, rehearse and record our songs - yes it takes longer than it did in the 80s when we had fewer other commitments but we believe the quality is better now than it was.

Every gig we play (albeit that's not many) we make a reasonable profit. We never play cover versions. Make of that what you will.
[/quote]

We're a 4 piece. Two of us have home studios but none of us is particulalry skilled at using them. Whay? We simply haven't got the time to develop these skills, write the material, reherase, gig and have something like a life as well. However maybe the difference is that we all have anything but senior roles in our organisations and therefore spend our days being sh*t upon from a great height, generally coming home exhausted and demoralised. Whereas strangely most of our managers seem fairly relaxed and upbeat.

We can make a profit, enough to cover expenses. Not enough to live on without having a full-time job to pay the bills, which was my point.

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='BigRedX']No but there's a difference between getting a single track from a band (in amongst a load of others) on a mix tape from a mate and downloading their entire recorded output because you're too cheap to pay for it.[/quote]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1340192385' post='1700659']
This is the real issue.
[/quote]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but earlier in the thread you said that piracy was a black and white issue and that anyone who stole as much as a single song was a thief and a c**t. Now you're saying that stealing a song is alright, so long as its just to put on a mixtape for your mate.

Seems like you agree with me after all. Some piracy is bad. Some piracy is ok. Hooray, everyone wins.

[Twigman]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1340193113' post='1700692']
But as you keep conveniently ignoring when I point it out AFAICS your current musical activities are pretty much founded on what you did as a band back in the 80s when you had record company support and the kind of time and money put into the band that most of us these days can only dream about. You wouldn't be getting to play the gigs that you do and command the fees that you do without that legacy.
[/quote]
Our audience now has very little to do with the promo in the 80s.
Yes the material was recorded back then but a lot of our punters weren't even born back then.
Would any of them know about us if we had relied solely on legitimate channels? No
It is years since our records were played on the BBC.
Without the illegal distribution network we would have no audience.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1340192781' post='1700679']
Because it is making out that someone on here making music for fun is not as good as someones who does it "Professionally".

That perhaps is part of the problem. Maybe the problem is not the sharing but some people see their music as more valid and better because they get a cheque from it when an album is sold. Without the money they are no longer getting the validation that their music is better than their best mate from high school who works during the day, records at night on Audacity, uploads it to youtube and gets their pleasure simply from people listening and enjoying their music.

Music was an entertainment, an art to be enjoyed by EVERYONE. songs got passed about and the writers long forgotten. Now it's no more than a newspaper to be bought used and forgotten about when the next one comes along.
[/quote]

You have not understood me. Where do you get time to develop as an artist?