Prime_BASS Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 We have been asked to play a show, or some festival crap in a town up the road, at a place I've heard of! Our singer tells me. 'Whoo, awesome' I think. The next day I have a message saying I need to buy the tickets to sell on.......... After a lot of messing about I get out of him that we need to buy 10 tickets. Thats 10 tickets to something that as far as I know doesn't exist. The 10 tickets show that we are commited and that we can pull in a crowd............ What a load of crap. The way I see it, the promotor doesn't do their job and makes a load of money by forcing bands to buy their own tickets, that they may or may not be able sell. Isn't this totally backwards, or is this the done way of thing? We arn't doing it, especially how the 'Promotor' is desperate for me to do the paypal transaction NOW!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waynepunkdude Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 [url="http://www.facebook.com/groups/161910165438/"]http://www.facebook.com/groups/161910165438/[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaydentaku Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 lazy promoter. I wouldn't give them the time of day and I would tell them why. But then, I am an introvert and I don't care for manners when it comes to idiots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 I've seen this kind of setup before. Ignore it at all costs. Basically, it revolves around typical greedy promoters who take the £'s home whilst thinking the band should think themselves lucky for having a gig. Id rather have a band practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pietruszka Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 There will be a fair few posts advising you what to do coming very shortly! And you're right, you shouldn't do it. They aren't promoting it and gettiong bands to do their leg work. I had a gig last night a short drive from mine and the promotor is a monumental, insufferable tosspot. He seems to pick on me for what ever reason, he gets bands no ones heard of to exploit so he can get a sh*t load of money and if you're lucky the band will get £20 between the memebers. I won't mention the promotor as this is a public forum, he does the old you have to bring in a crowd, advertise it and sell tickets routine a lot. A message to all pay to play promotors; Bollocks to you. Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackers Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 It is a massive pile of ****, but unfortunately it is becoming more and more common. I don't really know exactly why they do it, (though I expect lazy promoters/venues may be a factor), but it makes playing gigs a proper ballache. It is very common around Reading/Slough, so my last band had to do it just to play gigs at all! Sometimes we were given tickets, and told "Bring 20/30 people if you want to play here again", other times we were asked to buy the tickets then sell them on to others. If you have absolutely any choice, then avoid this stuff at all costs. If no-one does it, maybe they will remember that it's actually their f***ing job to sell the damn tickets! This sort of stuff really infuriates me. /rant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 If bands are willing to pay-to-play then why not go the whole hog and hire the venue as well? If a band can't bring in enough punters, then why would a promoter want to risk their own money? Once, perhaps, but never a second time. I'm not arguing [u]for[/u] pay-to-play, just trying to recognise the difficulties and risks on both sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 I can't believe this sort of thing is still going on. We did it in the 80s. I think back then it was £35 to play at the venue, probably close to £100 in today's money AND you had to get a certain number of people through the door. After that you made £x per person who said they had come to see your band. Strangely it didn't matter how many people came to see you, you never saw any money because either "No one said they'd come to see your band" or there was some other excuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 If you're going to sell tickets, then promote it yourself just as the fisherman says. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepeanmachine Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 The prog band I used to play in were part of this 'Manchester bands against pay to play' thing, I would suggest setting up a similar thing in your relevant town. I also used to play a lot around the Preston area, where this pay to play bollocks just didn't happen. Like a few people have already said, it only exists because of crappy bands with loads of mates being preferable to booking someone decent, trying to build a name for the night/venue. Mad Ferret in Preston is amazing purely for this reason, promoters there actually work hard at finding bands of a certain calibre to play. Don't get me wrong, the odd sh*tty band who's mates with the promoter still makes it through every now and again, but on the whole it's well run. Make a stand! Totally agree with MusicMan20 - I'd rather have a band practice too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pietruszka Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1338936023' post='1681521'] If bands are willing to pay-to-play then why not go the whole hog and hire the venue as well? If a band can't bring in enough punters, then why would a promoter want to risk their own money? Once, perhaps, but never a second time. I'm not arguing [u]for[/u] pay-to-play, just trying to recognise the difficulties and risks on both sides. [/quote] Your top point is bang on, if you're selling the tickets then it would make sense to do the whole evening your self! The second point? Well, I suppose if it fails they can blame someone else as they've agreed to bring in the crowd. The responsibility has been designated to someone else so it's essentially out of their hands. Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime_BASS Posted June 5, 2012 Author Share Posted June 5, 2012 (edited) At least now I know I'm not just being an asshater. Seems fairly stupid, especially how they asked us to play...... If we had asked to play and they said "can you get some people to buy tcikets from here(included link) and quote the band's name, s many as possible, we would like a minium of about 15 or 20 per band." That way it's a lot more polite and cuts out the ridiculous middle man bit that the band has to do. If they keep messaging I am going to ask her how many tickets she is going to sell herself. I will allow her to sell a minium of 50 tickets, but she has to buy them first herself, to then sell on to others..... Our current setup with this guy in the link (chaos promotions) is that IF we bring loads of people we get payed, if we don't no big deal. At the minute it is working but we can never garuantee to bring 30 or so people which we have been doing recently. As for the majority they are friends who want to go out and have a good time. Edited June 5, 2012 by Prime_BASS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 (edited) [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1338936023' post='1681521'] If bands are willing to pay-to-play then why not go the whole hog and hire the venue as well? If a band can't bring in enough punters, then why would a promoter want to risk their own money? Once, perhaps, but never a second time. I'm not arguing [u]for[/u] pay-to-play, just trying to recognise the difficulties and risks on both sides. [/quote] I totally agree. Putting on your own show is the way to go if you have a good following. Otherwise the venue owner needs to ensure that he puts on good quality acts and he will get a reputation and more people will come. He also has the ability to have a good local advertising campaign that visiting bands just can't do. Ripping off bands isn't the way to do this though. Edited June 5, 2012 by TimR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepeanmachine Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1338936023' post='1681521'] If bands are willing to pay-to-play then why not go the whole hog and hire the venue as well? If a band can't bring in enough punters, then why would a promoter want to risk their own money? Once, perhaps, but never a second time. I'm not arguing [u]for[/u] pay-to-play, just trying to recognise the difficulties and risks on both sides. [/quote] Fair point, but there's a lot of bloody brilliant bands out there that could really help put a venue/night on the map. I just think this is a better, more long term way of going about things. Having said that, I'm obviously not a promoter - so I've not wasted lots of money looking at an empty bar with a brilliant band playing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 I've been gigging for well over 30 years now. I've never paid to play and I never will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixingwithtom Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 This is really worth a read, there are paper copies available and/or you can download the "Fair Play Guide"...the situation has got a lot more complicated in the last few years with the likes of Sonic Bids etc...anyway, check this out: http://www.musiciansunion.org.uk/news-events/2012/04/27/fair-play-a-guide-to-co-promotions-ticket-deals-and-live-opportunities-2/ Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeBrownBass Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Paying for tickets off a promoter is ridiculous. I've played a show before and was given 50 tickets to sell for a minimum of £5 (£8 written on the ticket) from this the band got £1 per ticket and the rest to the promoter. I know the venue well and know its £100 to hire on a week night with sound guy. This meant that the promoter would get about £200 per band, with 6 bands on thats a fair old profit and obviously the money the band gets paid is the pound per ticket. It's a win/win situation for a promoter. They get paid & it looks like they're popular to the venues. on the counter part, as much as its the promoters job to get people in the venue & sell tickets, it's also your responsibility to build up a fan base and bring in your own punters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverBlackman Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 guildfest requires you to buy £1800 worth of tickets to sell on just to play on a small stage. People do it though..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Stu Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 [quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1338934936' post='1681495'] I've seen this kind of setup before. Ignore it at all costs. Basically, it revolves around typical greedy promoters who take the £'s home whilst thinking the band should think themselves lucky for having a gig.[/quote] ^this; I've seen it on the go over the past 10 years or more. My son's band fell for it long ago, in Edinburgh at a bar down Shandwick Place. From what i could see the bar owner relied on most bands who fell for it being either/and/or; young & gullible, keen to get any gig for exposure with dreams/promises of the big time, students who had loads of mates who would buy a cheap ticket to see their mates play. There usually followed a promise of "do this favour for me & I'll get you top billing next time". Quite often the bands only payment was a case of beer. It was only after they started (at my insistence) to tell the bar owners where to shove it that they started to get recognition of any description. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 yep...what gig..?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oggiesnr Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 If you're paying to perform it's not a gig, it's an opportunity to show off in public and there's plenty of ways of doing that without paying a promoter for the privilege. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Perhaps the next time anyone is offered such an opportunity, they could politely decline but tell the promoter that they are organising their own gig in the near future and are looking for a promoter to help them. If the promoter seems interested, tell them that they'll have to buy 50 tickets to sell on . . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRev Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 My band has had similar issues with a well known venue in Bristol. The promoter approached us after a very successful support slot and asked if we could play at his venue - in anyones language, this constitutes a booking, right? Over a series of emails it turns out that he's not actually willing to pay our fee, but rather we will have to sell tickets to his event, for which we will get £1 for the first 50 pepole who say they came to see us and £2 per ticket afterwards. The promoter claimed that we could potentially make £450 (our standard fee) if the night sells out. But given that the other bands on the bill would also be selling tickets under the same deal, we couldn't see how we'd make more than £200. We were also expected to arrange the four other bands for the event..... Essentially, the promoter stood to take £1200+ in ticket sales (if the event sold out) from which we stood to make £200 and the other bands on the bill £50 and we, the bands, would be doing all the work. We told him to stuff his event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 It is the same with a lot of 'charity' events. They want popular bands to apply to play..they choose and then see who else they can get on the bill by way of FB votes. We established contact and said we would welcome a call from them so we could discuss terms. We were then told we were in the hat for the 'votes' arrangement. We said thanks but no thanks and that as they were so oversubscribed they could offer that deal to someone else. I looked at the line-up and recognised one band from the 'circuit'.. No point getting angry about it....laugh it off and get on with your life. This sort of thing is kept going as some bands will play that game... My opinion is if you don't pay the bill, then you get the event that you deserve..but there you go. We don't do free gigs.. IF the eventing staff get paid.. so for a good cause known to us, we will talk about 'things'...but only a few a year. You can spend your whole summer doing free gigs if you are that desperate..and obvously some bands might be.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottomE Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 [quote name='icastle' timestamp='1338938100' post='1681546'] I've been gigging for well over 30 years now. I've never paid to play and I never will. [/quote] ^ this every time. Agreeing to do this just perpetuates the whole thing. Earlier someone said "If a band can't bring in enough punters, then why would a promoter want to risk their own money?" I'd say don't book bands who aren't going to bring in punters or if you are that worried get another job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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